BUFFY Feedback

[DaveShack]

Didn't mean to be overly critical. I work in software and have that problem (project intersections) on a daily basis.

 

[EmperorFool]

No, and I didn't mean to imply that you had. That BUFFY went out the door with that known issue was a small annoyance for me, and that I didn't have enough time to create a proper readme with Known Issues made me feel a little guilty. But I got a hug today and am okay now.

 

[mc-red]

Great Job EF and RH
I was going to post about the pre-chops which had me really excited but see its been discussed.
Can't wait for the next upgrade.

 

[culdeus]

What's the auto log user note hot key? Alt=e doesn't seem to work.

 

[EmperorFool]

The Custom Autolog Entry key hasn't changed from ALT + E. You must have Autolog enabled and be logging the current game. Hit ALT + L to make sure you are logging the game. If you were, hit it again and try ALT + E again. If it still doesn't work, please see the Troubleshooting page.

 

[culdeus]

yeah, that did it. thanks

 

[mc-red]

I have a problem where I can't see the expenses screen either via f2 or by the button.
Any idea what is going on?

 

[ruff_hi]

I have a problem where I can't see the expenses screen either via f2 or by the button.
Any idea what is going on?

Can you post a save ... or email it to me if you don't want to post ... ruff.hi at gmail dot com.

 

[EmperorFool]

As well, please provide the information (logs especially!) mentioned on the Troubleshooting page.

 

[mc-red]

Ruff its our team save -- my team mates see it fine but I can't see F2 or F5 for some reason.
I'll email you tonight when I get back.

EF - I'll check that link out.

 

[nocho]

Meant to ask this before, but now that the deadline has passed, I feel more free to post this here, as anyone can now freely consult other threads anyway...

AlanH raised us a warning during the SGOTM that we had quite a number of "reloads" during our game. Of course we never "really" reloaded, but it seems that opening the save (also when not your own turn) and touching stuff had triggered these reload-flags. So my basic question is, what actions are considered by BUFFY to be game changing? There seems to be such a thing called the "game state" and apparently it can be altered by actions that to the casual players that we are seem "reversible" and hence not game-altering, but maybe we have a too broad view of what is reversible...

To clarify a bit, here's a part of the discussion we had:

Reversible changes should not be a problem. irreversible changes are a concern, whoever makes them, and whether or not it's their turn to play.

I'm aware that you guys are new to the GOTM/SGOTMs, and I applaud your enthusiastic approach to the game. I'm only raising a gentle warning to remind you to ensure that you take note of the rules.

Okay, as law-abiding citizens we surely do take note!

So to make it clear beyond any doubt, we are allowed to do any of the following reversible changes with the save?
- Change worked tiles in city screens
- Assign/unassign specialists
- Change build queues
- Move sliders
- Change tech selection
- Check what deals you can get with the AI (without taking them of course)

If these are allowed and do not count as reloads, I do wonder what might have happened, especially as you say it has been rather frequent.

As I understand definite no-no's include
- Moving units
- Promoting units
- Other irreversible unit actions (worker actions, great people usage, usage of executives/missionaries)
- Making deals (including war/peace declarations)
- Hit end turn

I don't know if there's an explicit reference to these things somewhere.

@nocho: Your lists look about right, though are you sure there are no irreversible effects if you change a current build or a tech selection and create an overflow? There isn't a definitive list. If in doubt - don't do it!

@Whosit & Norvin_Green: Team members are not allowed to try irreversible moves and changes and then let the team revert to an earlier position. Any player can load the latest save. If they change it irreversibly then they have changed the game state, so that state must be saved and becomes the new latest save. If two of you load and change the same save, then you create a problem.

What I listed as "reversible changes" is what I think people regularly do in normal SGs when checking a save and that's what we did. For sure after AlanH's warning I didn't dare to touch anything anymore!

So, please, could you tell how this "game state" works and what affects it? Are these reversible things also no-no's?

If some things are allowed maybe it could be an idea to implement a "freeze"-button that only allows things that won't affect the game state. The freeze button would be slightly more permissive than the ordinary pause-button. Don't know if it's feasible though.

 

[AlanH]

When I look at the saves I can see whether significant changes have been made during a reload. I am not just monitoring a single "Game State" flag. The reason I raised this with Maple Sporks was that there were more of these events in their save than in other team saves, and I wanted to alert them to this as they were new to the competition. The incidents were minor, and virtually stopped happening after my warning, so I think this is a mountain/molehill situation.

BUFFY is created by the HoF team, and we "borrow" it for the xOTM games. I can't imagine that they would make a significant change to provide a 'freeze' button to cater for one team's minor problems.

Why does anyone who is not playing want to mess with the save?

PS. As I type, the deadline is still 30 minutes away.

 

[da_Vinci]

Why does anyone who is not playing want to mess with the save?

You are kidding, right?

I suppose it depends on what you mean my "mess with" ... if you mean reversible changes, sure, why do that.

But if you mean why would the other non-playing team members want to open the save, look at the position, examine the impact of making reversible MM changes, etc., all to inform the planning discussion, isn't that what the SGOTM is all about? If it is not, we have all been doing it wrong ... (except maybe Geezers ... just kidding! ) just look at our threads!

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

This new BUFFY mod definitely takes away an advantage from players who in the past took the time to look into all of the game mechanics and make careful calculations before making decisions. That's the main thing I don't like about BUFFY. It makes the game too easy.

What I think you really mean is that it acts as somewhat of an equalizer for lazy and/or ignorant people (such as myself).

Maybe what it does is shorten the ramp up time on the learning curve, and then make it possible to play a game in less time while still getting that detail of information? Perhaps making the game less tedious and more pleasant, rather than easier? Is that "spoon feeding" instead of "earning it"? Is taking the secrets out of the cloistered priesthood and bringing it to the masses a good or a bad thing?

Seems like it just gives you, the civ ruler, a competent management staff and IT system. Is that so bad? You still need to know what to do with all that information you can now see.

My question about Buffy is ... "Where is the manual?" (or the tutorial?)

dV

 

[Yamps]

^imo, it actually makes the game harder, slower and more tedious because people start to more about these things.

 

[ruff_hi]

Maybe what it does is shorten the ramp up time on the learning curve, and then make it possible to play a game in less time while still getting that detail of information? Perhaps making the game less tedious and more pleasant, rather than easier? Is that "spoon feeding" instead of "earning it"? Is taking the secrets out of the cloistered priesthood and bringing it to the masses a good or a bad thing?

I raised this very question with the HOF guys while we were working on BUFFY - they said they were not worried about devaluing the game .

My question about Buffy is ... "Where is the manual?" (or the tutorial?)

dV

Check the link to the BUG wiki ... it isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing. Not to mention the help file that came with it.

 

[AlanH]

You are kidding, right?

No

I suppose it depends on what you mean my "mess with" ... if you mean reversible changes, sure, why do that.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Looking at a save is not "messing with it". Making changes, whether reversible or irreversible, is "messing with it".

 

[EmperorFool]

I would think that making reversible changes in order to more intelligently discuss the next steps to take would be very important to an SG.

Let me use an example. You have a peace treaty with an AI that you want to reattack as soon as it expires--7 turns from now. You have just acquired Steel and want to upgrade your siege to Cannons before invading, preferably the turn before. To know how many turns of 0% :research: you need, you need to know how much you'll earn each turn at that level. You can't figure this out without changing the slider, something that has zero game effects and can be easily reversed immediately.

The only thing in that list that I have found to be irreversible is switching the production queue when the current item is a unit that just became obsolete. Maybe I have introduced a bug or there already is a bug, but I've noticed in my recent game that when I acquired Assembly Line, the Rifleman units I was producing remained in the queue that turn, even though I could not build them anymore. I accidentally switched one to Infantry and lost the hammers I had accrued toward the Rifleman. Is this normal?

Had I left it in the queue, the hammers would have transfered over to the Infantry, at least that's what I'm used to. Other than that, I didn't see any game-changing thins in the reversible list above.

 

[ruff_hi]

Leave it as a rifle, and it auto converts during the 'end of turn' processing.

 

[EmperorFool]

Leave it as a rifle, and it auto converts during the 'end of turn' processing.

Yes, that's what I normally do, but I just don't usually notice that I do that. This time I accidentally clicked the Infantry and my disappeared. It got me thinking . . . since I've never done that before that perhaps they normally autoconvert the turn you acquire the new tech (why the heck don't they?) and I had introduced a bug into BULL. Guess it's always delayed a turn; good.