Buildings

[Breunor]

Hi there gang, I hope you don’t mind my coming in late to the party with a few ideas here. I have some concerns about the buildings here mostly from a game play standpoint, as opposed to an Arda representation view. I think these building will change the game quite a bit – if that is intended, it is great. Otherwise, you may want to think about their impact.

Fortification

Fortifications will have a major impact on play especially with the AI. Firaxis and modders have had trouble making the balance between city defense and siege warfare proper. With too much defense, taking cities can become extremely problematic, and warfare becomes dominated by raids. Conversely, with siege ability too great, defenses become worthless as a build.

The critical problem with forts in any Civ IV system is that once a side gets conventional warfare hegemony, any fort size can be taken down with siege weapons simply by taking their time. In regular BtS, I don’t think most human players build defenses because the siege weapons are really good, defenses don’t help against pillaging, so defending by building more troops or your own siege weapons is usually preferable; if you are behind in strength, they will simply eventually get through any defense. In FfH, the system is rather brilliant and has been balanced between spells, super-powerful units and heroes, and siege weapons.

Note that in ‘real life’, in medieval warfare or later the equation was different. Battle losses were small relative to disease and starvation. Therefore, a defender holding out in a fort or castle was holding on for the attacker to give out. (Mobile warfare was slightly easier since the invading army would steal the food from the countryside, but in a siege the local food is used up quickly.) Even more important, the cost of fielding an army to take a castle could cost half of the invading army’s annual income. But these factors aren’t present in Civ IV.

Balancing it for human play is really tough, you want to have the different levels of fortification worth the cost and time. But I suspect that dealing with the AI will be frustrating. We usually find that the AI either builds too many or too few of these fortifications or has very poor judgment of where they are appropriate. With the fort levels you have in play, you could find Mordor building forts all over instead of troops, Morgoth building them instead of balrogs or dragons. Or, they won’t build any forts, it is really hard to get the AI to build the ‘right’ number.


Best wishes,

Breunor

PS I'll have other comments soon if that is OK.

 

[xmen510]

That is something we will have to consider.

Also, always share your thoughts. They are welcome.

 

[Berenthor]

That is indeed something to consider. One of the reasons we actually didn't want DCM in is to avoid just blasting an enemy into oblivion from the outside. We toned down the defense of all civs (except a few special ones) to help balance this out but I'm not sure if it is enough or to much. I think the best way would be to try and see what happens. I actually in my games sometimes use them (especially in the beginning) when I have to hold a city with reletaively few units (mostly archers of course) against an overwhelming numer (like swarmes of barbarians in FFH when your close to the Acheron city). Especially early game this can help. Later on I'm not sure.

 

[Sengir]

While I agree with you that it might be hard to get the AI to behave, there's really no way to tell other then to try it out. Only way to get this right is trial and error.

 

[Breunor]

That is indeed something to consider. One of the reasons we actually didn't want DCM in is to avoid just blasting an enemy into oblivion from the outside. We toned down the defense of all civs (except a few special ones) to help balance this out but I'm not sure if it is enough or to much. I think the best way would be to try and see what happens. I actually in my games sometimes use them (especially in the beginning) when I have to hold a city with reletaively few units (mostly archers of course) against an overwhelming numer (like swarmes of barbarians in FFH when your close to the Acheron city). Especially early game this can help. Later on I'm not sure.

I also think fortifications can help, and I do build them, sometimes, but the human player knwos where and when to build them. But I think you will agree that the AI on this is rather poor. In BtS they (AI) build too many for defense. I think they are a little more valuable in FfH since the AI doesn't build as much artillery as they do in BtS (and in FfH take cities in wave attacks).

One idea that may help here to make the fort builds more wothwhile is to reduce the culture defense. Kael did this in somewhat FfH, joking that a wall should provide more defense than a theater. With cultural defenses so high anyway, the forts mean less. Why build forts when libraries provide science, culture, and defense?!

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Breunor]

Happiness and Health

Happiness

I think that happiness and health will constrain city size more than it does in BtS or in FfH. I not making a qualitative judgment here, this doesn’t make it ‘bad’. I just want to make sure that everyone is aware of consequences. I haven’t spent a lot of time looking at resources, wonders, and civics that may impact here, but I will talk about the buildings. I think that happiness is a little more constrained than health so will likely have a greater proportional impact.


Clearly, the lack of religious buildings can be felt. In Arda, it looks like we have a market that gives a = +1 with trade goods, a tavern (+1 with wine), inn (+1), guild of artists (+1 fur, +1/20% culture), and a guild of minstrels (+1). Clearly there are a lot more happiness buildings in BtS, with all of the temples, the forge that gives a +1 for each of three metals, a market that gives +1 for 4 different resources, a theater (similar to guild of artists), the cathedral which can give up to 2 or three, and a colosseum gives 1. The late game wonders also add to happiness. Civics can also have a big impact on happiness (representation).

FfH also has a lot of happiness buildings, far more than Arda although the comparison is complicated, for instance FfH doesn’t have silver. Public baths give +3 happiness, gambling houses give +1 slider on commerce which can be substantial. Carnivals give +1 and allow captured animals to give +1 /species. Forges allow +1 with gold and hunting lodges give +1 for fur. Temples will give +1 if the religion civic is run and 1 for incense. Theaters also give a +1 for dye + 1 for each 10% to the culture slider. Conversely there are a few buildings (tax collector, asylum) which subtract from happiness.

Health

Directly comparing BtS to Arda, the granaries are the same. The smokehouse is similar to the supermarket but apparently is available sooner. The infirmary is less beneficial than the hospital. Arda has the well which is +1, and the apothecary +1 and an additional +1 for athelas). However, you no longer have the aqueduct (+2), the harbor (some health for coastal cities in BtS, yours has no health benefits) and the grocer. Therefore, all together I think health will be tighter.

However, it is worse in Arda once we add the forge, -3 health. It has the same production as the forge and a factory in BtS which have -2 health together. But in BtS you later get the recycling center, and public transit. In BtS a player can run environmentalism to supercharge health.

Comparing Arda health to FfH, I also think health is tighter in Arda. For health, the granaries and the smokehouses are the same, and the infirmary is one health worse in Arda. Arda has the well and the apothecary against FfH’s aqueduct and herbalist (and for some Civ’s the Temple of Leaves). Again, the biggest difference will be with the forge, the -3 for the powerful 50% production will be a very major hit.

The health abilities are probably OK if the happiness buildings don't change since I think in Arda you will run ourt of happiness first. But if you want to balance to have simialr city sizes as we have in FfH or BtS, I would opt for one more health building perhaps (like the cemetery in The Ancient Mediterranean), maybe restoring the infirmary to +3, and reducing the forge hit to -2 or making some other late health improvement building. Alternatively, you can have more health resources.

Best wishes,

Breunor

PS I'll have one more post on culture and relative value.

 

[xmen510]

Very good points all around. We will defiantely take this into consideration. Buildings have NOT been finalized so your suggestions can be more easily inorporated.

Once again, I thank you for your input once again. Keep up the great work.

 

[Berenthor]

I actually didn't even notice that some things were missing. Maybe we should add the harbor in again and reduce the -3 health of the forge to -2. We could add some small production bonus to the blacksmith for example, with a -1 health.

Are we going to add some +1 happiness/health bonusses for some resources to the buildings? I think we disregarded most up till now because resource list was not yet finalized.

 

[Sengir]

Looks like I missed some stuff writing the list.

- Harbor should still have health bonus.
- Forge should indeed be -2 health and have a bonus for metal happiness.
- Guild of minstrels should have +1 happy/10% slider as well.

Other happiness buildings might have to be added, but I'd have to check have much we have in total now for that to be certain. Suggestions of which buildings to add are more then welcome. Also, some buildings might grant happiness/health depending on civics.

 

[xmen510]

Updated the list with suggestions.

Don't forget that the Unique Buildings will give their own bonuses as well. Wonders will also have bonuses. I believe we probably do need to rethink things in regard to bonuses from resources. Keep the suggestions coming and I will continue to update as necessary.

 

[Breunor]

Looks like I missed some stuff writing the list.

- Harbor should still have health bonus.
- Forge should indeed be -2 health and have a bonus for metal happiness.
- Guild of minstrels should have +1 happy/10% slider as well.

Other happiness buildings might have to be added, but I'd have to check have much we have in total now for that to be certain. Suggestions of which buildings to add are more then welcome. Also, some buildings might grant happiness/health depending on civics.

I think adding these would help.

For the first post, I assume you mean to treat harbors liek they are in BtS (+ one health per sea resource) and forges as + one happiness /metal?

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[xmen510]

Implemented further updates for the Forge & Blacksmith.

@ Breunor:

Possible good ideas there. Lets see what the others think.

 

[Berenthor]

Sounds good to me for the harbor and the forge.

 

[Sengir]

I think adding these would help.

For the first post, I assume you mean to treat harbors liek they are in BtS (+ one health per sea resource) and forges as + one happiness /metal?

Best wishes,

Breunor

Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[xmen510]

Updating list as appropriate. Please go over it to make sure I haven't forgoten anything.

 

[Sengir]

What's next? Adding them to the tech tree or adding the hammer cost first?

 

[xmen510]

We should finalized the basic list before moving on. We can add more in later if we wish or have forgotten anything.

Then I would recommend figuring out the hammer cost. Once the BUildings are completed we can then add them into the Tech Tree. I believe I created an empty version that I have to update with out latest change. I will repost it in the Tech Tree thread so people don't have to go to all the trouble of doing it themselves.

 

[Breunor]

Culture

Here again the loss of temples, monasteries, and cathedrals will be felt. I guess the guild of minstrels becomes the key building besides the statue, does it plays the role the theater ‘normally’ plays. A lot of culture seems to be generated by the science buildings. Is this intentional?

Building Balance

Building balance refers to the player/choice dynamic. Building balance refers to the trade-off of some buildings vs other buildings or other builds like military units. If some buildings are just superior, they reduce building balance since all solid players will build them. This result isn’t necessarily bad. In BtS the granary and courthouse are really good building, the forge is also very strong.

FfH is a brilliant mod which has better overall balance; sometimes people look at the ‘big thing’s about FfH, like heroes, religions, spells, etc. but the mod just has outright improved the game in every way. In FfH, building balance is also very well done. If you run ‘city states’, you may forego the courthouse, or build it in select cities. Granaries are good building but not the powerhouses they are in BtS. Indeed, there are very few ‘automatic’ buildings in FfH.

It is hard to talk about building balance without cost. So, I can only speculate for now.

Like BtS, for Arda the granary is really a good building, 50% food with up to three health. The smokehouse is much worse unless you just happen to have lots of livestock and little grain, it is 10% food and up to three health. In contrast, in FfH both buildings provide 20% food storage and similar health benefits; note the building balance in FfH! Town halls are just better courthouses, I guess the idea is that everyone builds them, unless like Ff H you have an equivalent to the city-states civic.

Libraries seem to be very good also. Since they provide a point of culture and a lot of science, will you bother to build the statue? Archives and libraries seem to be a little similar for my taste – I would separate them a little more. I’m guessing the house of lore is a pretty expensive later building. But I think that these buildings will be high priorities since they provide both culture and a lot of science.

I really like the blacksmith, armory, and forge, I think these give the kinds of trade-offs that make the game fun, if the effects are well done, this is ‘good’ building balance.

So, as it stands, depending on cost (I'm assuming 'normal' type of cost) and other features like civics, I think granaries, libraries, and courthouses become almost 'must' buildings.

Military


I see you have pretty much the ‘standard’ troop buildings although as I said I like the blacksmith and armory. One point to consider is the relative strength of the military unit types. Specifically, I worry about cavalry. My reading of LoTR and even the Silmarillion is that Tolkien was (realistically) a believer that cavalry was quite powerful. I’m sure you will have special buildings or units for Rohan, but it may go beyond Rohan.

Not only was (in my opinion) cavalry realistically strong in Middle –Earth, you have to deal with incarnations in Civ IV and even FfH are dominated by city fighting, probably too much so. If you include some of the advanced fortification buildings you are discussing, siege and city warfare will be even more pronounced. Therefore, you may want to think about some kind of advance cavalry building or even wonder for cavalry or they may lose relevance. In FfH, this was partially addressed by a powerhouse wonder that make cavalry into killing machines (Ride of 9 Kings) or some other type of building/wonder/unit.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[xmen510]

Great ideas. We are indeed looking at having a fair number of Unique Buildings, we are not limiting it to only 1 per civ. The Ideas for Wonders afecting Units as well is good. Also, we are thinking along the lines of specific Race and Civ promotions to help out with that.

One of the things we don't want is to have culture be the end all and be all of the game. That is one reason why we don't have as many culture related buildings. Wonders will be able to give nice bonuses. Also, we are considering removing the ability for cities to flip culturally. It just doesn't feel right for this Mod.

 

[Sengir]

Granary should indeed be toned down and share it's role with Smokehouse.

About the culture on science buildings: I still think it feels right, though I agree that it will mean that people won't be building a lot of statues. Still it is not that different from BtS.
It all depends on hammers though. If the statue is cheap then it will be preferable to a library for early culture. It will also be earlier available in most cases. Too cheap and it will put the creative trait out of use, so we've got to be carefull here. We can also consider an additional benefit on the statue (-10% war weariness?).

I think the Library and archives ain't too bad. They will not be cheap to build, so should provide a good benefit.

Town Hall is a bit too much indeed. I'd rather stay away from 50% buildings and have it split over more buildings. Maybe have it as 30% and have some other buildings add 5% or 10% in addition to their current benefits (Post Office instead of War Weariness, Stockade lower War weariness discount).

Thanks for the input. Want a place in the team ? We're hiring, though not paying