Burqa ban in France goes into effect today..

[Steph]

Can you prove that every burka wearer is forced to wear it by a male? You don't think some want to wear it due to their own religious beliefs?

Not all of them are forced by a male. Some are forced by their religion.
Forced in both cases...

And by the way... Can you prove that every burka wearer want to wear it due to their own religious belief? You don't think some are forced to wear it by a male?

So you are claiming that the Muslim population wasn't "important" only 7 years ago when the new law was instituted?

I don't understand what you mean with this as an answer. What I said was that when the "Laicité" law came into force in 1905 it was aimed at catholics since there were few muslims in France.

The scarf law was indeed aimed mostly to muslim, because in 1905 the law didn't take into account muslim scarf for their were not that much muslim in schools.
So 7 years ago, to take into account the increasing number of muslims, the government decided to "update" the position of separation of church and school.

But I draw the line at religious persecution.

Public school is to learn, not to practice religion. There are places of worship for that.
I don't really see how asking children to remain "neutral" at school, while they are perfectly free to practice their religion at home or in mosquee is a persecution.

Does it only ban Islamic symbols or all religious symbols in the schools? I was under the impression it was all (Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Hindu, etc.) which isn't exactly persecution rather forced secularism (which I wish they did here in Italy were we still have crucifixes in the class rooms)

It bans every "ostentatious" religious symbols in public schools : muslim scarf, large christian cross, jewish kipa.
However discreet symbols such as a small cross, star of David of hand of Fatimah are allowed.

 

[kochman]

Can you prove that every burka wearer is forced to wear it by a male? You don't think some want to wear it due to their own religious beliefs?

of course some choose to wear it, for any number of reasons... so what?

 

[Thoughtful Thug]

Public school is to learn, not to practice religion.

They can't do both? So are you saying that a young woman can't learn at the same time while she wear brand name clothes, such as Floriane?

There are places of worship for that.

I think you have missed the point that it isn't a garment where it is specifically made for only to wear in places of worship.

I don't really see how asking children to remain "neutral" at school, while they are perfectly free to practice their religion at home or in mosquee is a persecution.

Most students in our public schools in the States have successfully done well in obeying certain etiquettes abstaining from any type of proselytising, or risk ridicule and contempt from their fellow students. Why can't France?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Does it only ban Islamic symbols or all religious symbols in the schools?

It doesn't ban all religious symbols as I clearly stated above. Just enough of the more obvious ones so it wouldn't appear to be specifically aimed at Muslims, as the current ban also does.

But who are they fooling? Both laws are clearly aimed directly at Muslims.

 

[kochman]

I think you should go over to some Muslim countries, Formy... Stay there for a bit.

 

[Thoughtful Thug]

Correct me if I am wrong. I think that the politicians that had allowed this stupid law to get passed, was made in the effect of scoring points for people holding fears of some weird conspiracy that France will be overtaken by Islam.

 

[kochman]

Correct me if I am wrong. I think that the politicians that had allowed this stupid law to get passed, was made in the effect of scoring points for people holding fears of some weird conspiracy that France will be overtaken by Islam.

50% of the babies born in Belgium are islamic... And that 50% will have a higher birth rate than the Euros... so, how is that type of thinking a conspiracy?
That's math.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I think you should go over to some Muslim countries, Formy... Stay there for a bit.

Why? So I can be exposed to even more intolerance? You do realize there should be a difference between modern advanced civilizations and more backward ones?

50% of the babies born in Belgium are islamic...

Source, please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium

According to the 2001 Survey and Study of Religion,[107] about 47% of the population identify themselves as belonging to the Catholic Church, while Islam is the second-largest religion at 3.5%.

 

[Akka]

I used "Hate" as an exaggeration (It was partly a joke) but I think "Dislike" is accurate.

But that wasn't the point either. The point was that they hate American values of Freedom, otherwise this law would never have been passed.

You do realize that these "American values of Freedom" are mainly based on the French's writings during the "Siècle des Lumières" ? (I'll give you one guess why it was called like that and from where it got its name)

Not sure. I don't know French History well.

It shows.
One advice you should hear (and that's clearly not restricted to France) : try to educate yourself in a subject before commenting on it. You would not believe how it would change your whole life.


As for the thread topic...

I'm uneasy about it. I've absolutely no sympathy for deliberate religious clothing, but as long as it's someone's own with to wear it...
Though I can get the "don't cover your whole face" thing, I feel it's more of a pretext to not make the Muslim's targeting too obvious.

I chose the last choice in the poll : as long as it's not in a professionnal setting (especially if someone works for the State, though it's already forbidden to display one's political or religious affiliation in these case, so the law is irrelevant here), it's okay.
I totally support the idea of punishing people who force others to wear it, though.

 

[Akka]

Man, Sarkozy is really really... REALLY pandering to the baser instincts of French politics. Let me guess, his poll numbers have been down for awhile now.

Yep.
You noticed, too ?
You can also see a pattern with all the hot air and big moves he's doing in the international scene (Libya and Ivory Coast for example). Trying to look like the tough and efficient guy.

 

[nato2101]

It doesn't ban all religious symbols as I clearly stated above. Just enough of the more obvious ones so it wouldn't appear to be specifically aimed at Muslims, as the current ban also does.

But who are they fooling? Both laws are clearly aimed directly at Muslims.

You clearly stated your opinion.
Now to anyone else is the ban, which includes all major/clearly visible religious symbols, really target only Muslims?

 

[Formaldehyde]

You clearly stated your opinion.

No, I cleary stated the facts which came from the article I posted.

It forbids state school students from wearing "conspicuous" religious apparel. Jewish skullcaps, Sikh turbans and large Christian crosses are also banned.

Do you care to dispute them with actual facts instead of your own opinion?

Now to anyone else is the ban, which includes all major/clearly visible religious symbols, really target only Muslims?

Once again, no it doesn't as others have even stated. The only religious ornaments which are now banned are large ones, such as the crosses that some evangelical Christians and Elton John like to wear.

 

[Akka]

As the article points out, France already banned the simple headscarf in schools in 2004. It is clear they simply don't care about the religious and cultural rights of Muslims. Those who do not conform to their own standards of how to dress are further examples of how "multiculturalism has failed".

Actually, wearing openly any obvious symbol of religion or political opinion in state-run school or when you represent the State has been banned for more than a century, so you are late by decades.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Actually, you still can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools

In December 2003, President Jacques Chirac decided to act on the part of the Stasi report which recommended banning conspicuous religious symbols from schools. This meant that the legislature could adopt the recommendations, according to the emergency procedure, in January or February, ready for application at the start of the next school year in September 2004.

On 10 February 2004 the lower house voted by a large majority (494 for, 36 against, 31 abstentions) in support of the ban, which includes the caveat that the ban will be reviewed after it has operated for one year.

In order to enforce the law, effective decisions whether certain items are "ostentatious" or not will have to be taken. In order to achieve that:

the Minister of Education will issue circulaires, or instructions for its services; it seems that large crosses, full hijabs or yarmulkes would be banned, while small symbols such as small Stars of David or crosses in pendants would not be;

headmasters will have to judge whether particular attire is or not acceptable with respect to the law;

if necessary, families will go to administrative courts to challenge the school authorities' decision; a final decision may not be reached until the Conseil d'État at litigation (supreme administrative court), decides some points of jurisprudence.

 

[nato2101]

No, I cleary stated the facts which came from the article I posted. Do you care to dispute them with actual facts instead of your own opinion?

Once again, no it doesn't as others have even stated. The only religious ornaments which are now banned are large ones, such as the crosses that some evangelical Christians and Elton John like to wear.

So the kippah is allowed?

 

[Formaldehyde]

I guess you also missed this post?

So you are claiming that the Muslim population wasn't "important" only 7 years ago when the new law was instituted? That this ban wasn't directly aimed at Muslim school children with Sikh turbans, Jewish skullcaps, and overly large crosses added to make it look a bit more PC?

 

[nato2101]

I guess you also missed this post?

1) In Milan (not France but not far from there) there are a hell of a lot more students with the kippah than students with any other form of religious garb 2) When I was at school in France (admittedly back in 05) there were more kippah's than other religious garb. If anything the law discriminates against the Jews more than Muslims, they just don't seem to be protected as much.

 

[Formaldehyde]

So what's your point? That Jews should be just as offended as everybody else is by these absurd laws? They likely are...

And I seriously doubt there were more yamulkes than there were crosses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France

Catholicism 51%
Islam 6%
Protestantism 3%
Judaism 1%
Buddhism 1%
Other 4%

 

[nato2101]

So what's your point? That Jews should be just as offended as everybody else is by these absurd laws? They likely are...

That if anyone is being targeted it is them, and it is not an absurd law, if they want religious education they can go to a religious school, public schools are secular.

 

[Formaldehyde]

How is wearing a symbol of your religion "religious education"?

And what about all the Catholics who still wear relatively small crosses to public schools? Where do you suggest they go?