Byzantium

[ElliotS]

I think Byzantine's UA is very competitive with those. The problem is their UU and UB imo. Spain's got a straight up way better UU and UB, while getting even more "free faith" by not needing to buy missionaries nor inquisitors for their cities. Aztecs and Celts also have very strong UU and UBs. (People might argue, but +1 happiness in every city on your UB makes Celt UB very strong.)

I would like to see their UU not have -1 movement. Makes it feel like a side-grade. If they're going to keep -1 movement then removing city attack penalty completely would make sense imo.

Faith-buying their UB is an interesting idea, but it seems to ignore the real problem. I think the real problem is that their UB comes pretty late (way after you found normally, sometimes after you enhance) and only gives faith. (Which is rapidly deteriorating in value at that point.) It also gives +1 gold in the form of no maintenance sure, but it doesn't feel great to me.

Not sure how to fix it, but it stacks up so unfavorably to the Mission it's not even funny imo.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Maybe add an artist specialist and art slot to the Basilica? Historically Byzantium was known for its art. This would make the Basilica closer to the standard set by the Celtic Hall, only minor issue is you could argue that artist guilds aren't in play yet, still additional Golden ages are never bad.

 

[Funak]

I think Byzantine's UA is very competitive with those. The problem is their UU and UB imo. Spain's got a straight up way better UU and UB, while getting even more "free faith" by not needing to buy missionaries nor inquisitors for their cities. Aztecs and Celts also have very strong UU and UBs. (People might argue, but +1 happiness in every city on your UB makes Celt UB very strong.)

I would like to see their UU not have -1 movement. Makes it feel like a side-grade. If they're going to keep -1 movement then removing city attack penalty completely would make sense imo.

Faith-buying their UB is an interesting idea, but it seems to ignore the real problem. I think the real problem is that their UB comes pretty late (way after you found normally, sometimes after you enhance) and only gives faith. (Which is rapidly deteriorating in value at that point.) It also gives +1 gold in the form of no maintenance sure, but it doesn't feel great to me.

Not sure how to fix it, but it stacks up so unfavorably to the Mission it's not even funny imo.

The Cataphract is as usual just horrible, and absolutely not fit to be a unique unit, no question about it, there is nothing it actually does better than the Conquistador.

The effect on the unique building is as I've mentioned before great, but nowhere near as good as Gazebo seems to think it is. Pop/2 faith per turn is a cool effect and in longterm you'll get a lot of faith out of it, but it is absolutely not so strong that the base-yields of the temple needed to go in order to make room for it. In fact as a semi-late classical era building it should probably have more base-yields than the normal temple or the same yields and unlock even earlier.
I would suggest cranking it up to 3faith 2culture baseyields or something like that, would be more comparable to the same-era uniques over other civs in that case.

 

[tu_79]

Or just make the Cataphract useful. A theming bonus could be +25%CS against heathens (civs not sharing Byzantium religion).

 

[phantomaxl1207]

WI we make Cataphracts purchaseable with Faith? The +30% on open terrain is nice. Complements the Defensive bonus pretty well.

The UB feels like it's lacking something. It does help with Religion, but that's all it does. It ought to do something else or have a base Yield to help jump start for how late it comes in the Religion race.

 

[Gazebo]

The Cataphract is as usual just horrible, and absolutely not fit to be a unique unit, no question about it, there is nothing it actually does better than the Conquistador.

The effect on the unique building is as I've mentioned before great, but nowhere near as good as Gazebo seems to think it is. Pop/2 faith per turn is a cool effect and in longterm you'll get a lot of faith out of it, but it is absolutely not so strong that the base-yields of the temple needed to go in order to make room for it. In fact as a semi-late classical era building it should probably have more base-yields than the normal temple or the same yields and unlock even earlier.
I would suggest cranking it up to 3faith 2culture baseyields or something like that, would be more comparable to the same-era uniques over other civs in that case.

Why the personal attacks? Is it not possible to discuss balance without sniping?

G

 

[Dawnpromise]

Why the personal attacks? Is it not possible to discuss balance without sniping?

G

I'll agree that the personal attack was uncalled for, but I also agree that the UU and UB for Byzantium feels underwhelming. The UA is my favorite in the game but I don't enjoy playing them because everything else about them falls short.
In my recent game as America I came to the opinion that the knight is debatably better then the cataphract and clearly there's an issue when you prefer the base unit over you civs unique.
And the basilica whilst better then the temple later on requires at least 8 citizens to out scale the base yields of the temple, it needs something more. Although I will admit the trade route pressure is a nice nod to the Byzantine Empire's historical control over trade, it doesn't have the impact of other unique buildings such as the Hanse with its production modifier or the Celtic Hall with it's musician specialist. Even the Spanish Mission at least can be faith bought and adds additional religious pressure from the city (and the on birth effect generates more faith then the basilica does.

 

[Gazebo]

I'll agree that the personal attack was uncalled for, but I also agree that the UU and UB for Byzantium feels underwhelming. The UA is my favorite in the game but I don't enjoy playing them because everything else about them falls short.
In my recent game as America I came to the opinion that the knight is debatably better then the cataphract and clearly there's an issue when you prefer the base unit over you civs unique.
And the basilica whilst better then the temple later on requires at least 8 citizens to out scale the base yields of the temple, it needs something more. Although I will admit the trade route pressure is a nice nod to the Byzantine Empire's historical control over trade, it doesn't have the impact of other unique buildings such as the Hanse with its production modifier or the Celtic Hall with it's musician specialist. Even the Spanish Mission at least can be faith bought and adds additional religious pressure from the city (and the on birth effect generates more faith then the basilica does.

And this is why the community exists - not to tear into me, but to say 'hey, Gazebo, let's not forget about x/y/z and what it could use to be stronger/better/faster.'

I rarely, if ever, have a personal attachment to a UU/UB/UA.

G

 

[Funak]

Why the personal attacks? Is it not possible to discuss balance without sniping?

What personal attack? I've brought up the base yields on the Basilica before, and you said it is fine without baseyields, so clearly that's what you think(thought?). And me stating that I don't think the effect is that good is not really a personal attack either, that's a comparison.

 

[Gazebo]

What personal attack? I've brought up the base yields on the Basilica before, and you said it is fine without baseyields, so clearly that's what you think(thought?). And me stating that I don't think the effect is that good is not really a personal attack either, that's a comparison.

What, a year ago? The mod is a constantly-moving target. Dredging up 6mo+ old data is irrelevant at this point.

G

 

[CrazyG]

How exactly are cataphracts horrible? It is a long from "being unfit as a UU, no questions asked". Its a knight with another 5 CS and very impactful combat bonuses. I get that the conquistador might be better, but conquistadors are one of the best UUs available.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think Byzantine's UA is very competitive with those. The problem is their UU and UB imo. Spain's got a straight up way better UU and UB, while getting even more "free faith" by not needing to buy missionaries nor inquisitors for their cities. Aztecs and Celts also have very strong UU and UBs. (People might argue, but +1 happiness in every city on your UB makes Celt UB very strong.)

I would like to see their UU not have -1 movement. Makes it feel like a side-grade. If they're going to keep -1 movement then removing city attack penalty completely would make sense imo.

Faith-buying their UB is an interesting idea, but it seems to ignore the real problem. I think the real problem is that their UB comes pretty late (way after you found normally, sometimes after you enhance) and only gives faith. (Which is rapidly deteriorating in value at that point.) It also gives +1 gold in the form of no maintenance sure, but it doesn't feel great to me.

Not sure how to fix it, but it stacks up so unfavorably to the Mission it's not even funny imo.

I agree, the UA is good but the UB isn't. The Cataphract is not bad, it's good but it seems bad because it replaces the same unit as the splendid, awesome Conquistador. Anyway, both Byzantine uniques both do not have to be very good, one would be enough. I'd not mind a solution like having Cataphract come earlier, maybe on Engineering though not with 30 CS and open terrain bonus, one or both would have to go as Knights are already the masters of their era and they can't come earlier unchanged. It'd be historically accurate as Cataphracts were present long before Knights, and they were slower but hard-hitting. Something like an earlier Knight with looted Cover I and -Movement would be a fine representation, hard to counter but not impossible and flavourful. That, or just keep him as he is. Byzantium's bigger problem is Basilica, Cat can stay as he is as he is a decent UU that is not nearly among the worst UUs, it just has the misfortune of being a replacement of Knight when Conquistador exists.

Mission, yeah, is better but still likely the second worst UB in the game. Sure, its yields will always be underwhelming and all the other UBs of Medieval/Classical will usually provide more/better even if you go Thrift + Veneration, but at least it provides fast, instantly bought with faith castles whereas Basilica just provides more Faith and a slightly better religion spread with TRs (iirc?), the second of which you might not even want if you didn't take a second founder belief. So yeah, Mission definitely is better than Basilica and it'd be insane to claim otherwise, but both are probably the worst two UBs, mostly because yields really matter a lot and they either give little and/or not the needed ones. Sure, instant castles are good, but they're not free anyway and a civ with +Production in any unique gets a free castle too if you think about it.

It's hard to even think about what Basilica can get. Great Artist idea in this thread might be cool, but too many civs have GWAM-related stuff imho. Basilica would be a very cool and unique building if all of them got +1 Culture +1 Faith for every Great Prophet you've spawned during the game or for every civilisation/CS that has your religion as majority, though I don't know if that's possible. It'd fit Byzantium's toolset, at least. No one else just gets stuff for owning a dominant religion other than reformation.

 

[Funak]

How exactly are cataphracts horrible? It is a long from "being unfit as a UU, no questions asked". Its a knight with another 5 CS and very impactful combat bonuses. I get that the conquistador might be better, but conquistadors are one of the best UUs available.

It's a knight with 20% higher CS at the cost of 25% lower movement, yes there are some promotions on it that are impactful some times, but a unique knight should really never make you wish you had a normal knight instead, which has been the case more times than once when I played Byzantium.

What, a year ago? The mod is a constantly-moving target. Dredging up 6mo+ old data is irrelevant at this point.

If that's how you feel about it, absolutely, I'm sorry and I'll rephrase my earlier statement.
'I think the Basilica is undertuned, the faith per pop thing is definitely cool, as is the extra spread from trade-routes but I don't think those abilities are strong enough to warrant a complete removal of baseyields on the building'

 

[Dawnpromise]

How exactly are cataphracts horrible? It is a long from "being unfit as a UU, no questions asked". Its a knight with another 5 CS and very impactful combat bonuses. I get that the conquistador might be better, but conquistadors are one of the best UUs available.

It's a knight with 20% higher CS at the cost of 25% lower movement, yes there are some promotions on it that are impactful some times, but a unique knight should really never make you wish you had a normal knight instead, which has been the case more times than once when I played Byzantium.

I'll echo Funak's sentiment. When the cataphract replaced the horseman it wasn't so bad, but the knight is pretty much the best unit of the medieval era. You don't want a UU that 'lessens' any area of 'best' it's go better or go home. It doesn't even have a unique promotion to carry onward on promote so I can honestly say 2 out 3 games I find myself wanting the knight instead for the 1 extra move, extra CS is useless you get the unit into position to attack.

 

[Txurce]

It doesn't even have a unique promotion to carry onward on promote so I can honestly say 2 out 3 games I find myself wanting the knight instead for the 1 extra move, extra CS is useless you get the unit into position to attack.

Are you blaming the unit for you not getting it into position to attack?

Rather than another super-hero knight, I'd prefer a version along what Enrico proposed: introducing the UU earlier, maybe with a little less CS.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Are you blaming the unit for you not getting it into position to attack?

Rather than another super-hero knight, I'd prefer a version along what Enrico proposed: introducing the UU earlier, maybe with a little less CS.

No, rather the issue is I mind myself delaying attacks due to the fact that the enemy is out of range. I usually manage but it's awkward to go an era where the enemy has greater movement range to attack then I do. I think it's a let down that the era with my UU is the era I'm most inclined to play defensive BECAUSE of my UU preventing me from cavalry charging like any other civ can.

 

[Txurce]

No, rather the issue is I mind myself delaying attacks due to the fact that the enemy is out of range. I usually manage but it's awkward to go an era where the enemy has greater movement range to attack then I do. I think it's a let down that the era with my UU is the era I'm most inclined to play defensive BECAUSE of my UU preventing me from cavalry charging like any other civ can.

That's why having it appear earlier will give you an edge, without turning the UU into yet another variation on the same overpowered theme. If I recall correctly, it's also more accurate historically.

 

[Gokudo01]

Byzantium feels a bit lacking compared to other civs at times. They're greatly adaptable but sometimes they feel like a 'jack-of-all, master-of-none' kind of civ. Other religion based civs seem to compete with Byzantium's identity of 'the religious civ' but they do it a tad better because their UA doubles as an 'extra belief' while doing more to carve a niche.

Aztecs: War Religion Faith on kills (War Pantheon built in from start)
Celts: Tribal insular religion: Ignore foreign pressure, Unique Pantheons, +2 faith in each city following your religion.
India: Start with pantheon, Each follower grants +%growth and pressure (built in fertility pantheon + ritual)
Spain: Inquisition: Ignore foreign pressure, Auto-Purge foreign religion on conquest, faith-buy a castle

Meanwhile Byzantium: +1 Pantheon, Follower, Founder, OR Enhancer Belief, can pick already picked beliefs and can always found a religion. Double Pressure on trade routes.

Byzantium may have a wordier description but ultimately their UA offers a bit less in practice then most other civs in my experience.

At the very least can we faith buy the Basilica? Maybe a pressure increase on it as well? Byzantium is in a good spot overall it's just lagging a bit compared to its peers.

• First thing, first, compare to who ? to other "religious civs"? Byzantium doesn't feel any pressure with early faith generation, you don't fear to get some maya + ethopia combo on the other side of game which will instant-lock two religion, leaving you fighting for 1 of the two last slot. Byzantium can do so nasty combo, hello pacifism + evangelism. They can be one of the best warmonger on the long run with inspiration + thrift + scholarship, your puppet will generate a decent yield while not increasing neither technologies nor policies cost. Anybody who likes to brawl knows that zealotry doesn't have any cooldown and Byzantium and spain are both the best to abuse it.
• Take care to powercreep. I see people on this forum ( for example Elliots) which are always asking for buff buff and buff. Powercreep is a never ending cycle which can bring more issues than it solves. I'm not against redesigning in general, because some design are clearly not fun or are duplicate and steal some other civs identity ( korea with babylon ) or brings nothing or so few ( america before the changes ) but adding an endless stream of buff is not the right solution. I think also, that windows of opportunity are a better design than global passive abilities.
  
• Now, let's talk about the cataphract because we both agree that the UA is strong. Cataphract has got the possibility to get defensive bonus from terrain ( +25% from forest and hills ) and get +33% bonus when attacking in open terrain. Even with less base strength than conquistador, they are usually stronger in most of my fight. Moreover if my memory is not messed up, they can fortify. So yes they can't attack cities but they are better than any horseman to create a nomansland near the city you are trying to take. They are tough as phuck and hit like trucks.
  
• About basilica, I have to admit the fact that her unique building is a temple, makes it weak by design because temples are not high priority buildings. it's like having an unique building which replaces Caravansary, it has to be overpower in order to feel good because the common building is at best, situational.

All in all, I think byzantium is descent, there are some points which could be improved but I would prefer another round of nerf on the top tier contenders.

Why the personal attacks? Is it not possible to discuss balance without sniping?

G

welcome to internet

 

[Dawnpromise]

That's why having it appear earlier will give you an edge, without turning the UU into yet another variation on the same overpowered theme. If I recall correctly, it's also more accurate historically.

I'll agree with the historical accuracy, I always assumed plate armor > chain mail anyway. But what you're suggesting doesn't solve my complaint, it just extends the duration of how long I'm 'buckled down' waiting for mobility to return. Personally I never fully understood why it was pushed up from replacing the horseman, seemed like it was just to differentiate it from the Mandekalu Cavalry, which I think has a promotion and nothing else.

 

[ElliotS]

Okay then here is my proposal:

Cataphracts get normal base movement, +15% CS against other religions, and restore normal cavalry city attack strength penalty and they're fine. I would still prefer the extra sight and settling of the conquistador, but at least Cataphracts would be better on defense and never worse than a knight.

As for Basilicas: I would like to see them give normal temple base yields and +1 culture per 5 cities following your religion added onto the current building.

That would be really cool imo.

As for Cata's coming earlier: IDK. 30 strength AND defense any sooner sounds like it would be too OP. If they don't have proper tools to manage it a few 30 strength juggernauts would likely 1 shot every unit they have. It sounds wildly OP. If you weaken it then you exacerbate the current problem too.

I think the elegant solution is to buff them and make them a more fight-y less recon/settle-y UU knight than the Conquistador.