C2C - Building Review Thread

[Hydromancerx]

I have been meaning to ask for the market, bazaar and grocer buildings to have 2 unhappy to represent the best outcome of both parties being satisfied with the outcome of the trade. With this being countered by the Standardization of Weights and Measures building. It would be a bit more realistic and reduce the excess happiness in the early period.

I have found that adding any to a building makes it radioactive to players. That even if the benefit greatly outweighs the sacrifice of having a . That's why a lot of buildings with needed to have that part removed and instead applied though auto-build buildings.

 

[Arakhor]

That's basically cheating the players then, isn't it?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Not so much cheating the players, since the ai gets the same stuff, as making it impossible to play a strategic or even tactical way since you have no idea what growing a city, building a building or changing a civic will cause to happen.

Some auto buildings are fine but I do think we may need to review them every now and then to make sure that they are not hiding stuff unnecessarily.

 

[Faustmouse]

I have found that adding any to a building makes it radioactive to players. That even if the benefit greatly outweighs the sacrifice of having a . That's why a lot of buildings with needed to have that part removed and instead applied though auto-build buildings.

I disagree here. isn't nearly as bad as - or -

Nobody likes penalties, but they are necessary for game balance. And currently is only a problem in high crime cities...

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Faustmouse

Well tell that to the LP C2C YouTubers. I have watched countless videos of C2C over the years and there are just ome buildings people will not build, despite having other benefits.

 

[Arakhor]

Have you considered doing a poll or something on the forum, Hydro? You keep talking about "people" to justify things, but if you're only going from half a dozen LPers or so, that's going to provide a very skewed view.

 

[Azurian]

Been looking at the TableXML data and there is a large number of strategy/stats changes we can implement especially in Building Tech Obsoletion. Problem is some of the early buildings obsolete really far away in the tech tree, when they can theoretically obsolete earlier. The issue is the expanded Ancient Era brings new opportunities for Prehistoric buildings to obsolete. I'm going to post tables here for discussion.

 

[Taxman66]

Personally I don't mind buildings with a bit of malus if the benefits outweigh them. 1 or 2 is nothing really, if there is plenty of room to absorb it. The buildings I have to think hard about are the ones with large or espically crime or disease (are there smilies for those?) malus. No offense to the C2C youtubers, but they all have vanilla mindsets (like most newbies) when it comes to C2C.

However, the tavern comes to mind as one building I never build. In that case I can usually absorb the malus... However, the drawbacks still dramatically outweigh the small benefit and there is always something better to build.

I do wonder if certain buildings (that can also be built by animals) should be adjusted somehow. I mean why spend to directly build a Carnival, when you can spend a much smaller fraction of them building a Tamed Animal that can do it for you?

The new Tamed Animals are great, but it is having some odd side affects. Who new that subdued birds, snakes, and bears are now more valuable since you can't build Tamed versions (yet?).

 

[Arakhor]

I don't tend to build Harems myself, but there are so many buildings, it's often difficult to decide what to build. I frequently end up lining up up to a dozen and leaving it at that.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I do wonder if certain buildings (that can also be built by animals) should be adjusted somehow. I mean why spend to directly build a Carnival, when you can spend a much smaller fraction of them building a Tamed Animal that can do it for you?

The new Tamed Animals are great, but it is having some odd side affects. Who new that subdued birds, snakes, and bears are now more valuable since you can't build Tamed versions (yet?).

Indeed. Nice to have the tamed animals but something still feels 'off' about its implementation and I think DH felt that way about them too.

I know you may have had some ideas about these DH BUT I have an idea that maybe someone else could help to implement (since I know YOUR time is as valuable as any of the master modders on the team - always with something important to do.)

It strikes me that to produce animals means you need to breed them. To breed them means you need to be setup to do so. Once setup to breed, you're going to breed just to keep the herd or family going through the generations. To do even this means there will be a consistent rate of excess that can be sold to the governing bodies (or if the government is breeding them for itself the same fact applies, there will always be more than needed to keep breeding going.)

Therefore, producing animals like this is not quite like constructing a building or even training troops who've been recruited (through whatever process your nation does so.) Production should go into the setup - then some malus from the building, like food consumption perhaps, then at a random or established rate the city would automatically begin to produce these creatures. How fast would obviously be somewhat determinate on how quickly the species reproduces.

So... I suggest that for Tamed Animals we create a building for each one. The building works much like the Biodome but only pops out the one type of animal at whatever manner we define the rate of emergence. The animal can often be used to autobuild another breeder building elsewhere, or whatever other builds it can do.

The current method of building the animals generates a bit of micromanagement hell (which normally I like) - It's just the way it experiences out in the game.

This method might make it a little more fun as well - the player gets to feel like he's been gifted by the seeds he's sown, and it may add some balance and control to the rate of animal generation. It's one way to patch the AI thinking they're a great selection for building an army... I certainly don't mind these animals being a PART of an army but the way the AI currently sees them it's needing deep AI repair to solve and this could be done much faster.

Just an idea I'm throwing out there...

 

[Snofru1]

Just an idea I'm throwing out there...

Now that´s an excellent one (in my eyes)!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Indeed. Nice to have the tamed animals but something still feels 'off' about its implementation and I think DH felt that way about them too.

I know you may have had some ideas about these DH BUT I have an idea that maybe someone else could help to implement (since I know YOUR time is as valuable as any of the master modders on the team - always with something important to do.)

It strikes me that to produce animals means you need to breed them. To breed them means you need to be setup to do so. Once setup to breed, you're going to breed just to keep the herd or family going through the generations. To do even this means there will be a consistent rate of excess that can be sold to the governing bodies (or if the government is breeding them for itself the same fact applies, there will always be more than needed to keep breeding going.)

Therefore, producing animals like this is not quite like constructing a building or even training troops who've been recruited (through whatever process your nation does so.) Production should go into the setup - then some malus from the building, like food consumption perhaps, then at a random or established rate the city would automatically begin to produce these creatures. How fast would obviously be somewhat determinate on how quickly the species reproduces.

So... I suggest that for Tamed Animals we create a building for each one. The building works much like the Biodome but only pops out the one type of animal at whatever manner we define the rate of emergence. The animal can often be used to autobuild another breeder building elsewhere, or whatever other builds it can do.

The current method of building the animals generates a bit of micromanagement hell (which normally I like) - It's just the way it experiences out in the game.

This method might make it a little more fun as well - the player gets to feel like he's been gifted by the seeds he's sown, and it may add some balance and control to the rate of animal generation. It's one way to patch the AI thinking they're a great selection for building an army... I certainly don't mind these animals being a PART of an army but the way the AI currently sees them it's needing deep AI repair to solve and this could be done much faster.

Just an idea I'm throwing out there...

An Idea I have had in the back of my mind for quite awhile. The event system is not quite suitable and I did not have a clear idea on how to do it until I read some of the code from Pie_at's mod on the death of slaves. I will probably implement both.

My idea was that if you have the one of the breeding buildings in a city the herd building and any resources of that type worked by that city would have a low chance that a tamed unit would be bred. This means that a city with a horse herd and works two horse resources may get 0-2 tamed horses in a turn. This stops when you build the breeding program great wonder somewhere after Biology which causes every city you have to the base buildings that can be built by that unit.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That's a great way to go imo.

 

[Faustmouse]

Personally, I would be annoyed if I get 0-2 Horses per turn in X cities. And then of course all the other animal that can be build. More then 1 or 2 Animals PER TURN adds more micro management then building tamed ones IMO. It's fun in the beginning but later when your empire grows (I remember to have ahd like 30-50 cities by the time I hit Biology) it is just annoying.
I really like the Breeder Wonder idea that gives those buildings for free! If you want to reduce micro management, would it be possible to change the early breeders so that they have a chance to directly build a building in a (connected) city? Like King Richard's Crusade generates units? Or do you have the feeling that this is too simple/less fun?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Have you considered doing a poll or something on the forum, Hydro? You keep talking about "people" to justify things, but if you're only going from half a dozen LPers or so, that's going to provide a very skewed view.

That's a good idea actually. How do you make a poll on this forum?

Also I think we are over dozen LPers now.

1. Quill18
2. darrinus
3. rcd1293
4. shenryyr2
5. Tegual
6. IdioticUlt1mara
7. medraut567
8. Reeve x
9. Vans TheBunker
10. By GrimithR
11. Takuma
12. Broken Circus
13. The twisted Oak
14. Kit42
15. ToroLoco
16. Leafonthewin
17. 12padams (AstralPhaser)
18. Mah-Dry-Bread
19. thelastbeluga

I apologize if I forgot anyone. Note I know there are also people who do post LPs on forums or blogs rather than YouTube LPs. Its harder to tell how they are playing. So they are left off the list.

Personally, I would be annoyed if I get 0-2 Horses per turn in X cities. And then of course all the other animal that can be build. More then 1 or 2 Animals PER TURN adds more micro management then building tamed ones IMO. It's fun in the beginning but later when your empire grows (I remember to have ahd like 30-50 cities by the time I hit Biology) it is just annoying.
I really like the Breeder Wonder idea that gives those buildings for free! If you want to reduce micro management, would it be possible to change the early breeders so that they have a chance to directly build a building in a (connected) city? Like King Richard's Crusade generates units? Or do you have the feeling that this is too simple/less fun?

I have to agree. I don't want more animals produced if I have all my cities with the animal buildings built.

 

[Thunderbrd]

At a low chance for each though it would be exceedingly uncommon for more than one to be birthed - mostly just more likely you get one where you're working more of the resource.

However, this does have the added difficulty of making sure each animal being generated this way HAS a resource/herd to work with.

 

[Azurian]

What is the tag to have a building gain a % with a Tech ?

Example:
+5% with Fishing

I am curious, if I hypothetically wanted a building to do the following:
-5% with Computers
-5% with Ecology

Edit:
TechCommerceModifiers?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What is the tag to have a building gain a % with a Tech ?

Example:
+5% with Fishing

I am curious, if I hypothetically wanted a building to do the following:
-5% with Computers
-5% with Ecology

Edit:
TechCommerceModifiers?

That is the one I thought of.

 

[Azurian]

That is the one I thought of.

Just did some research and we are correct:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-256362.html

Technology Affected Buildings (TAB) v0.21

1. What is this?

Technology Affected Buildings (TAB) is a mod component which does nothing on it's own, but allows creating buildings that improve or change as the player discovers new technologies.
It is based on BTS 3.13 + Bhruic 1.21.



2. What bonues can technologies provide?

New techonlogies can modify the following parameters of the buildings:
- yield (food, production, commerce) change
- commerce (gold, research, culture, espionage) change
- max specialists
- yield (food, production, commerce) modifier (%)
- commerce (gold, research, culture, espionage) modifier (%)

Negative numbers are allowed, but they are very local in scope: they affect only the technology affected part of the building.
This means that negative numbers can be used to make previous tech bonuses obsolete, but they can not change the city's yield, commerce or max specialist values.

Example:
Let's say a forge is affected by Banking (+1 gold) and Industrialism (-1 gold, +1 production)
This means that with the discovering of Banking all forges start to produce +1 gold. After researching Industrialism the forges no longer produce gold, but they will provide +1 production.

If the forge is modified that it is only affecetd by Industrialism (-1 gold, +1 production) then with the discovery of Industrialism all forges start to give +1 production and the -1 gold is ignored.

6. What are the new XML elements available in the Civ4BuildingInfos.xml?

Spoiler :

To affect commerce change add a TechCommerceChanges element to the end of a building type definition:


<ElementType name="TechCommerceChanges" content="eltOnly">
<element type="TechCommerceChange" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="TechCommerceChange" content="eltOnly">
<element type="PrereqTech"/>
<element type="TechCommerce"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="PrereqTech" content="textOnly"/>
<ElementType name="TechCommerce" content="eltOnly">
<element type="iCommerce" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="iCommerce" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>


Example:
Add 5 espionage with computers.

<TechCommerceChanges>
<TechCommerceChange>
<PrereqTech>TECH_COMPUTERS</PrereqTech>
<TechCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>5</iCommerce>
</TechCommerce>
</TechCommerceChange>
</TechCommerceChanges>

To affect yield change add a TechYieldChanges element to the end of a building type definition:


<ElementType name="TechYieldChanges" content="eltOnly">
<element type="TechYieldChange" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="TechYieldChange" content="eltOnly">
<element type="PrereqTech"/>
<element type="TechYield"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="PrereqTech" content="textOnly"/>
<ElementType name="TechYield" content="eltOnly">
<element type="iYield" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="iYield" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>



Example:
Add 1 food with refrigeration.

<TechYieldChanges>
<TechYieldChange>
<PrereqTech>TECH_REFRIGERATION</PrereqTech>
<TechYield>
<iYield>1</iYield>
</TechYield>
</TechYieldChange>
</TechYieldChanges>


To affect allowed max specialists add TechSpecialistChanges element to the end of a building type definition:


<ElementType name="TechSpecialistChanges" content="eltOnly">
<element type="TechSpecialistChange" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="TechSpecialistChange" content="eltOnly">
<element type="PrereqTech"/>
<element type="SpecialistCounts"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="PrereqTech" content="textOnly"/>
<ElementType name="SpecialistCounts" content="eltOnly">
<element type="SpecialistCount" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="SpecialistCount" content="eltOnly">
<element type="SpecialistType"/>
<element type="iSpecialistCount"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="SpecialistType" content="textOnly"/>
<ElementType name="iSpecialistCount" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>



Example:
Can turn 2 citizens to artist with mass media.

<TechSpecialistChanges>
<TechSpecialistChange>
<PrereqTech>TECH_MASS_MEDIA</PrereqTech>
<SpecialistCounts>
<SpecialistCount>
<SpecialistType>SPECIALIST_ARTIST</SpecialistType>
<iSpecialistCount>2</iSpecialistCount>
</SpecialistCount>
</SpecialistCounts>
</TechSpecialistChange>
</TechSpecialistChanges>



To affect commerce modifier add a TechCommerceModifiers element to the end of a building type definition:


<ElementType name="TechCommerceModifiers" content="eltOnly">
<element type="TechCommerceModifier" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="TechCommerceModifier" content="eltOnly">
<element type="PrereqTech"/>
<element type="TechCommerce"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="PrereqTech" content="textOnly"/>
<ElementType name="TechCommerce" content="eltOnly">
<element type="iCommerce" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="iCommerce" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>


Example:
Add 10% espionage with computers.

<TechCommerceModifiers>
<TechCommerceModifier>
<PrereqTech>TECH_COMPUTERS</PrereqTech>
<TechCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>10</iCommerce>
</TechCommerce>
</TechCommerceModifier>
</TechCommerceModifiers>


To affect yield modifier add a TechYieldModifiers element to the end of a building type definition:


<ElementType name="TechYieldModifiers" content="eltOnly">
<element type="TechYieldModifier" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="TechYieldModifier" content="eltOnly">
<element type="PrereqTech"/>
<element type="TechYield"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="PrereqTech" content="textOnly"/>
<ElementType name="TechYield" content="eltOnly">
<element type="iYield" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="iYield" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>



Example:
Add 10% food with refrigeration.

<TechYieldModifiers>
<TechYieldModifier>
<PrereqTech>TECH_REFRIGERATION</PrereqTech>
<TechYield>
<iYield>10</iYield>
</TechYield>
</TechYieldModifier>
</TechYieldModifiers>

 

[Arakhor]

That's a good idea actually. How do you make a poll on this forum?

Click 'New Thread' and then scroll down to the Additional Options, where there's one for poll questions. That said, I'd consider recording myself playing the C2C early game if that's what it takes to be considered 'people'.