C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

@CP8:
Check out the discussions I'm having with DH in his Religious Modmods thread. There's some plans coming together that will end up involving the religious civics that you should be aware of and if you have any comments on them I should hear them soon. This is probably a plan that will come together in the next cycle.
 
Categories for governments to reflect: Really only three points I'd like to visit there;

Anarchy, Chiefdom, and Despotism are governments designed to be worse than the others and as such don't need any part being more powerful than other governments. If you are going to make Despotism the strongest government for Military (Units and building) then you should also have no Civic City Limits on it. If you do then strongest Military should be moved to one that does not have City Limits.

Democracy and Republic should have their strengths switched. Democracy more cultural and Republic more commercial. I also would want to suggest having Republic's strength being :gold: rather than :commerce: as :commerce: can be used for anything with the sliders making any commercial government strong in any field and not just for commerce.

Rather than having all governments have a single strong point I would like to see only 4 or 5 of them "specialized" in a single field; Despotism (Military, if no City Limits on it, and :espionage:), Republic (:gold:), Democracy (:culture:), Totalitarianism (:hammers:), and Technocracy (:science:).
The rest should be a mix with a few parts a little stronger but not near as strong as the specialized ones, and possibly fewer cons. You have that with Monarchy and it's +5% across the board already but I think it would be good to have that with Theocracy as well where State Religion is present, and -5% on all for every non-State Religion present in a city, if that is possible to set up that is.


Monarchy:
Looks good to me except for one thing; if you want it to have the least maintenance then +30% to all aspects is quite a lot. I'd set the number of cities at +10%, remove the distance, and reduce Overseas to -25% instead. That way the monarchy's colonization is covered as Monarchy would be the easiest to have far-flung colonies overseas with (using the classic Governor to rule them) while keeping the larger core cities at a normal maintenance cost. For this end there should also not be any City Limits from this Government as that would be contrary to colonization and expansion.
I would, because of Knights and the idolization of them, also add increased Great General appearance.

Republic:
With the -15% Distance and +25% number of cities maintenance you have it at cheaper to keep than Monarchy with City Maintenance. I can't read what the Civic Cost is from your post though so it might be that Republic costs more in Civic Cost. With the amount of Civics in the game though a single Civic costing more is only a small part of the whole and with the same other Civics you still come out cheaper with Republic than Monarchy. Keeping with having Monarchy cheaper in City Maintenances I would set Monarchy as I wrote above and keep Republic with your suggestion of -15% and +25%.
I'm not sure how much commerce you were planning to have on Democracy. Without seeing that it's hard to comment on how much +%:gold: Republic should have in my opinion, as per my wanting Republic and Democracy switching strengths. +15%:gold: in Capital and +10%:gold: in all cities might be good though, and reduce or remove the increase in :culture:.

Theocracy:
I would like to see more benefits from having a State Religion and more penalties from having more religions at all. The ability to do Inquisitions should also be a part of the government I think as should the no spreading of non-State Religions.
I would love to see it slightly stronger than Monarchy in all things except City Maintenances when only having the State Religion in a city, but having that bonus reduced by every other religion present in the whole nation. Starting with +10% across the board and +20%:culture:, reduced by 5% for every other religion in the whole nation. Nearly as strong as specialized governments but in everything when having a single religion present.


All in all when it comes to City Maintenances I would rather see the penalties toned down to the point where the cheapest ones have -% in city maintenances rather than less +% and instead increase Base City Maintenances to make up for the "loss" from reducing Civic City Maintenances. This is for all Civic Categories that you have increased City Maintenances for, not just Government Civics.

That is it for now.

Cheers
 
Theocracy:
I would like to see more benefits from having a State Religion and more penalties from having more religions at all. The ability to do Inquisitions should also be a part of the government I think as should the no spreading of non-State Religions.
I would love to see it slightly stronger than Monarchy in all things except City Maintenances when only having the State Religion in a city, but having that bonus reduced by every other religion present in the whole nation. Starting with +10% across the board and +20%:culture:, reduced by 5% for every other religion in the whole nation. Nearly as strong as specialized governments but in everything when having a single religion present.


All in all when it comes to City Maintenances I would rather see the penalties toned down to the point where the cheapest ones have -% in city maintenances rather than less +% and instead increase Base City Maintenances to make up for the "loss" from reducing Civic City Maintenances. This is for all Civic Categories that you have increased City Maintenances for, not just Government Civics.

That is it for now.

Cheers

I think that we should get rid of City Limits on Theocracy. Some of the largest empires in history (Ummayads, Abbasids) were theocracies, and I think that the limit makes it so that everyone avoids it and reduces the viable options in the midgame.
 
I thought the idea was to get rid of city limits completely and "limit" them on upkeep cost like in vanilla. I liked that idea.
Also, I like the idea that every gov civic (except the first 2 or 3) have something where they are specialized in! :goodjob:
 
I thought the idea was to get rid of city limits completely and "limit" them on upkeep cost like in vanilla. I liked that idea.
Also, I like the idea that every gov civic (except the first 2 or 3) have something where they are specialized in! :goodjob:

The problem with that is that is makes them no longer an option. Part of the way city limits are now is due to the fact that some people don't like them at all and won't play with them. The limits used to be hard caps, but were changed to be soft limits back in V17.

However increasing the costs affects people whether or not they have City Limits on, in effect imposing limits on everyone, which is bad.
 
Is it possible to change the maintenace costs from civics/ cities via game options or BUG options?

These cost-city-limits was there in vanilla, making the city spamming like in civ 3 not a valid strategie which was very good I think. I also like to have lots of cities, but being able to have 30 cities in the ancient age feels just wrong.
 
Is it possible to change the maintenace costs from civics/ cities via game options or BUG options?

These cost-city-limits was there in vanilla, making the city spamming like in civ 3 not a valid strategie which was very good I think. I also like to have lots of cities, but being able to have 30 cities in the ancient age feels just wrong.

You could add such an option, but code-wise it would be rather ugly (you'd need two separate tags for all maintenance or something). I personally am liking where CivPlayer8 is taking things with his new proposal, so let's use that for the release of V28.
 
I personally am liking where CivPlayer8 is taking things with his new proposal, so let's use that for the release of V28.

I agree here, his NEW proposals are ALOT better, at least THIS time the Barbarians and AI are better off, i just wish, i could find out WHY the Barbarians dont appear, before turn 400ish:(
 
I agree here, his NEW proposals are ALOT better, at least THIS time the Barbarians and AI are better off, i just wish, i could find out WHY the Barbarians dont appear, before turn 400ish:(

They start appearing when you get tribalism. If it is taking you 400 turns to get tribalism then it is all your fault:mischief:
 
You could add such an option, but code-wise it would be rather ugly (you'd need two separate tags for all maintenance or something). I personally am liking where CivPlayer8 is taking things with his new proposal, so let's use that for the release of V28.

ok, i will have to see how they are in game to judge ;)
Worst case, I have to modify them in my C2C Folder. Shouldn't be too hard, is it?
 
They start appearing when you get tribalism. If it is taking you 400 turns to get tribalism then it is all your fault:mischief:

ahaha:lol: i knew that but just wanted a written copy of it on the forums for everyone to see, thx, i knew i could count on you, to OPEN my eyes.:p :eekdance: And i betcha alot of people didnt know that either . . . SO
 
ahaha:lol: i knew that but just wanted a written copy of it on the forums for everyone to see, thx, i knew i could count on you, to OPEN my eyes.:p :eekdance: And i betcha alot of people didnt know that either . . . SO
I didn't know it. ;)
 
Is written tradition gonna get a slight buff? Or perhaps oral tradition should be nerfed, like instead of +5%:science: it could be -5%:science:, ignorance might need to be nerfed then too.
 
Is written tradition gonna get a slight buff? Or perhaps oral tradition should be nerfed, like instead of +5%:science: it could be -5%:science:, ignorance might need to be nerfed then too.
Hmm, I don't think we can afford to nerf Ignorance. There is a certain balance with the Prehistoric era you just can't mess with. Instead, I'd opt for a buff of Written Tradition.
Edit: BTW BlueGenie and ls612, I'm not ignoring your ideas, I just want anyone who has an opinion to voice it before I voice mine. ;)
 
Hmm, I don't think we can afford to nerf Ignorance. There is a certain balance with the Prehistoric era you just can't mess with. Instead, I'd opt for a buff of Written Tradition.
Edit: BTW BlueGenie and ls612, I'm not ignoring your ideas, I just want anyone who has an opinion to voice it before I voice mine. ;)

Indeed. Originally interpreters was the middle and any thing before that was -:science: that did not work out well at all so I made it so each Civic added something and if someone for whatever reason did not like using the civic category they could just stick with the Civic with no bonus or penalties.

In short please don't mess with the Civics that I made too much because they are more or less balanced due to be tweaking them. The other civics however I have not really touch or are not even made up by me. Note mine include ...

- Agriculture
- Education
- Garbage
- Immigration
- Language

I am always open to suggestions to them though.
 
Indeed. Originally interpreters was the middle and any thing before that was -:science: that did not work out well at all so I made it so each Civic added something and if someone for whatever reason did not like using the civic category they could just stick with the Civic with no bonus or penalties.

In short please don't mess with the Civics that I made too much because they are more or less balanced due to be tweaking them. The other civics however I have not really touch or are not even made up by me. Note mine include ...

- Agriculture
- Education
- Garbage
- Immigration
- Language

I am always open to suggestions to them though.

I'm still going to try and find a way to make the Language civics into techs, as currently they only provide scaling bonuses and so aren't really good civics per se. I know that there is the issue of the relationship effects, but I think I may have a way to deal with that.
 
I'm still going to try and find a way to make the Language civics into techs, as currently they only provide scaling bonuses and so aren't really good civics per se. I know that there is the issue of the relationship effects, but I think I may have a way to deal with that.
Really? Awesome! :goodjob: How soon might we see this happen?
 
As soon as I work out the aforementioned technical issues with relationships and convince Hydro not to freak out about it.

No offense to Hydro, but :lol: I am glad he LIKEs working with everyone!!
 
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