C2C - Fake Goods

[BlueGenie]

I can in some part agree but adding too much to them other than able to build certain buildings with some goods will just increase the already high , , in the game.
To use them other than enabling buildings would in my opinion require a reduction of something which then gets increased by certain goods. For instance Trade Route Yield could be reduced by 50% which can be gotten back by getting 10 goods with +5% Trade Route Yield. Having 16 such goods in total in the game would possibly mean able to get a total effect of +30% Trade Route Yield from Goods. Not OP as there's so much else giving bonus to TRY so +30% on top of +200%
is only a 10% total increase.

Just to clarify; Drugs doesn't have to mean addicts kind of drugs, medicines are also called drugs; ache pills, penicillin and the like, even brews from herbs. It's probably a mix of both in the game and all in all drugs probably give more healthy than unhealthy.

 

[steampunk1880]

but the goods (drugs) represented in the game come from buildings that imply recreational uses such as peyote, marijuana and poppies (for opium) not something like penicillin. If you want a positive drug good then you might want to call it "medicine"... produced by apothecaries... required for hospitals.

 

[Nevets_]

Not sure if this would work, but what about a having the Goods 'replaced' by the building that produces them? So you could have them contribute a small amount of or or but when you built the 'production' building in a city it would replace those yields with it's own, slightly better ones.

For example:

Tablet Maker gives +1 // in the city it's built, and gives you Good (Tablets) +1 in all your other cities. You build a second tablet maker in another city, and that city replaces it's Good Tablets so you get Actual: +1/

I'm certain that replaced building still count for other buildings' prereqs, and I'm almost certain they don't contribute to ///etc.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Sorry to necro but I'm pretty sure I have a good reason and this is where it goes.

Were goods ever going to have any kind of food, hammer, commerce, gold, health or unhealth attached to them? Last I saw hydro and joseph disagreed and hoskuld suggested moar testing and I don't know what became of the discussion after. Assuming the question was just left and forgot about instead of decided in the negative can we have a list of goods to brainstorm some kind of balanced yield for the goods. Not every good deserves it, but some, like drugs IMHO should at least produce some unhealth from the inevitable addicts.

They originally had values like any other building or resource. Some still have them like Smart Medicine. When it was applied the cities grew way too fast since every city got a bonus. Now that the goods act more like resources it may be possible to add them back in. However how to balance them? Seems like any time we add a negative of anything people freak out. If we added maintenance or something people would complain. Until we find something to balance them I am just leaving off the benefits of the goods and their only purpose now is to enable other buildings that DO give benefits.

 

[steampunk1880]

Ok, how about single digit percentage points eg: 1-9% but mostly 1s and 2s. Say like in a city of size one with minimal base production having ropes would give a bonus of 2% hammers for their utility which amounts to practically nothing. In a city of size 20 with a much higher base production the 2% hammer bonus would mean something.

Think of it this way. In a "city" of 1000 citizens barely 20 are going to be using ropes on a daily basis for their trade. In a megalopolis of a million citizens there are 20K habitual rope users. Makes sense from a storytelling perspective.

Another idea: keep the goods without bonuses but have buildings that would use certain goods have small additional bonuses Only If those goods are present in the city. So a shipwright needs sails and wood (I think) what if it only needed wood but if you had sails (symbolizing high quality cotton sails instead of canvas you can make anywhere) you'd that building'd have a 10% commerce bonus or something. Ooh, and having prime timber would get you a 20% hammer bonus when building ships.

That said there are no fractions or percentages for happy/unhappy health/unhealth, not that that would make sense anyway so I still say whole happy/unhappy health/unhealth should be tacked onto certain goods that currently aren't.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ooh, and having prime timber would get you a 20% hammer bonus when building ships.

All ready does for all wooden ships.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@steampunk1880

Lets take your rope example. Should the rope maker and rope BOTH give bonues? Seems like we are making double benefits by having the good producing building and then the good itself.

 

[Nevets_]

I think there is a way around 'doubling up' bonuses from Goods and producers, have the Producer replace the Good building, like I posted above. I'm 95% sure replaced buildings still count for other building prereqs.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think there is a way around 'doubling up' bonuses from Goods and producers, have the Producer replace the Good building, like I posted above. I'm 95% sure replaced buildings still count for other building prereqs.

I think we ran into a problem with doing this. Such as the Free Granary being replaced by the Modern Granary. Thus I am hesitant to have any building that is given for free another building that replaces it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think we ran into a problem with doing this. Such as the Free Granary being replaced by the Modern Granary. Thus I am hesitant to have any building that is given for free another building that replaces it.

We did but it was fixed.

 

[BlueGenie]

Taking rope as an example I'd say change the way they work. Rope Maker now gives bonus to gold as well as a hammer and enables the Rope (Good). Having it as:

Rope Maker gives +1 Gold (for making and selling the good), the good gives between +0.1 and +0.5% Hammers per TOTAL amount of Rope Makers built in all your cities (on continent or via trade routes??).
Again a smallish hammer bonus but in larger civilizations with large cities it's worth having as many as can be around.

Cheers

 

[EldrinFal]

We did but it was fixed.

It was fixed as it applies to one shot WWs that provide free buildings. What happens when you have a Good that can be made by 2-3 buildings? If the Good is replaced by an upgrade, but then a different building is made that again supplies that Good, would it re-appear?

Taking rope as an example I'd say change the way they work. Rope Maker now gives bonus to gold as well as a hammer and enables the Rope (Good). Having it as:

Rope Maker gives +1 Gold (for making and selling the good), the good gives between +0.1 and +0.5% Hammers per TOTAL amount of Rope Makers built in all your cities (on continent or via trade routes??).
Again a smallish hammer bonus but in larger civilizations with large cities it's worth having as many as can be around.

Cheers

These small time shops need fractional gold to help curb the current overflow. If they even deserve + in the first place.

 

[Nevets_]

It was fixed as it applies to one shot WWs that provide free buildings. What happens when you have a Good that can be made by 2-3 buildings? If the Good is replaced by an upgrade, but then a different building is made that again supplies that Good, would it re-appear?

Not sure, but I don't think replaced buildings actually disappear, I think they just get 'turned off' so they don't contribute //etc. but still count for prereqs. It wouldn't be too hard to do a find/replace in the goods XML file to add in the replacement tags, I'll try it and see if the game crashes.

 

[Koshling]

Not sure, but I don't think replaced buildings actually disappear, I think they just get 'turned off' so they don't contribute //etc. but still count for prereqs. It wouldn't be too hard to do a find/replace in the goods XML file to add in the replacement tags, I'll try it and see if the game crashes.

Yeh, should be fine.

 

[steampunk1880]

Taking rope as an example I'd say change the way they work. Rope Maker now gives bonus to gold as well as a hammer and enables the Rope (Good). Having it as:

Rope Maker gives +1 Gold (for making and selling the good), the good gives between +0.1 and +0.5% Hammers per TOTAL amount of Rope Makers built in all your cities (on continent or via trade routes??).
Again a smallish hammer bonus but in larger civilizations with large cities it's worth having as many as can be around.

Cheers

Is it even possible to do less than one percent? If so I second this idea. The rope maker is a producer and generates money from sales. The people are consumers and use the rope... You know I can think of two other buildings that do stackable bonuses like that: Military and Commercial satellites. But then the bonus is tacked onto the buildings and the good gets bupkis again. I'm not sure if I like that. Hmm.

Anyway. Answering hydro directly I think that the rope maker building should have a minor gold bonus representing taxes from sales (let's just pretend sales tax has already been invented back then) and the rope itself should be the source of extra production.

Or you know what, save the gold bonus until sales tax IS invented. What tech would that be?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Or you know what, save the gold bonus until sales tax IS invented. What tech would that be?

It is just a short cut for the game. Wealth was around long before money but we are used to money. Representing half a bushel of poppy seed and three stone carved goblets (each worth three camel loads of dates) is much harder to represent on the screen.

 

[Nevets_]

O.K., so apparently I was wrong, and replaced buildings are not usable for prereqs.

Of course, the other way to avoid 'double dipping' is to have the production building only give you what the Good building doesnt.

For Example:

If Good (Tablets) Gives +1, have Tablet Maker gives +1 / + 1 , so together they produce what Tablet Maker is giving us currently.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Taking rope as an example I'd say change the way they work. Rope Maker now gives bonus to gold as well as a hammer and enables the Rope (Good). Having it as:

Rope Maker gives +1 Gold (for making and selling the good), the good gives between +0.1 and +0.5% Hammers per TOTAL amount of Rope Makers built in all your cities (on continent or via trade routes??).
Again a smallish hammer bonus but in larger civilizations with large cities it's worth having as many as can be around.

Cheers

How do you do decimal hammers? Or even values in general?

 

[steampunk1880]

@ Nevets
You and I seem to agree that the bonus for goods producing buildings should be split between the buildings and the goods but I prefer percentages to flat bonuses and here's why: a flat bonus most strongly benefits small empires with small cities which is what you most likely are early game. This causes me to reach the middle ages no later than 3000 BC. Miniscule percentage bonuses have little to no effect on small empires with small cities but give increasingly more benefit to large empires with large cities which is what you're aiming to become mid to late game. When I reach the middle ages in 3000 BC with several hundred thousand stored gold I blame flat bonuses entirely.

@ Hydro
That's what I want to know.

 

[Nevets_]

I was thinking the Goods should only give yields that help the local city. So basically just , not . The way I always saw it was having a large variety of Goods should give new cities a leg up, since the first Settlers (and traders later on) bring pre-made items like rope, scrolls, bricks, etc. to the new city, rather than the city itself having to build a local industry up just to produce basic tools and supplies. Once the city starst producing it's own bricks and rope and scrolls they will make money by exporting (or at least no longer importing) these goods, as well as contributing to your empire's scientific knowledge.

So if you don't have Goods give or they don't contribute anything to your empire as a whole, and would only let the new cities grow faster. Plus with Hydro changing service buildings to give -, early research will be slowing down soon; hopefully it won't be feasible to run at 100% after you found your first city.