C2C - Productive Controversial Discussions

Since you were a MoO fanatic back in the day, I would like to know what you would like to see in the Galactic Era. What do you think would be good ideas to make our space gameplay unique?

Also, totally off-topic, did you know that there is a MoO mod for civ 4 on CFC?

Yes I was/am a MoO fanatic for the Whole series. I modded MoOIII. Excel spreadsheets make more sense to me than this xml, python, and sdk stuff. :p

As for C2C's Galactic era, I suppose that would depend upon the foundation going to be used ie, FF Plus, etc.

And yes I play Jeleen's MoO2Civ v5.1 (now v5.3) from time to time when I get nostalgic for MoO but want CIV's foundation. I also Play Dune Wars, The_J's Mars Now, Planetfall, and it's clone Conflict on Chiron, and Star Trek4.31. But not on any regular basis like C2C.

@Hydro,
The building look good! But there seems to be a slow rising concensus that it should incur a cost in gold. I really chafe at that. As I also chafe over the gold cost to the research/library chain of bldgs. (he reduction of 1 gold you did for me back 2 versions ago helped. But at time I still can't afford to build Libraries, SoS, Math Academies, etc like I want too.)

To those who say there should be a gold cost to Rev Church: have you gotten to use it yet? I have not made it to it yet in my current game. And if you have not made it to it, to use it, why do you think every bldg needs a down side? If the cost is greater than the gain the chance of being used diminishes rapidly. The RC can be the bldg that keeps you going during a long war, or when the Disease Mod is finished a bldg to help heal and relieve unhappiness.

I personally believe it needs to be played with before it gets critiqued too hard.

JosEPh :)
 
@JosEPh_II

1. I am not convinced that the Revivalist Church should cost gold. Maybe a small maintenance cost but not direct -:gold:.

2. I already compromised with you on the science buildings. In fact I was leaning to change them back recently. In the spirit of good relations I will leave it as is rather than going one way or the other.

3. Why can't you afford to build Libraries? How the heck to you build your economy so you can't build them? I am not going to say you play the wrong way but its not difficult to at least support a library in each city without going into the red.
 
@JosEPh_II

1. I am not convinced that the Revivalist Church should cost gold. Maybe a small maintenance cost but not direct -:gold:.

2. I already compromised with you on the science buildings. In fact I was leaning to change them back recently. In the spirit of good relations I will leave it as is rather than going one way or the other.

3. Why can't you afford to build Libraries? How the heck to you build your economy so you can't build them? I am not going to say you play the wrong way but its not difficult to at least support a library in each city without going into the red.

1. Agree
2. Thanks
3. I Never use Slavery, Ever. If more ppl would leave that Civic alone then they would start to see the pinch you can get into until certain Civics and buildings become available.

I build Every Gold producing bldg that does Not give me Crime. This means that old favorites like the Harbor line and the River lines are off limits too until I Must build a few to keep from going too far into the red. I build up my reserves and then push out several tribes/settlers. Every tribe sent out as soon as it is settled removes ~25 Gold from the gold/turn that I have. And a settler can remove later in the game as much as 50 gold/turn depending upon what resources are at it's founding spot.

Also if the Library has a -4 gold and it only gives a +5 research by the time the maintenance modifiers work it over that -4 gold actually becomes -4.x to -7.x gold for only 4 or 5 beakers. To me That's a Bad trade off! School of Scribes is just as bad in my book cause it's soon it's costing more gold than it gives in beakers. Math Academies is slightly better, but only slightly. At one point I was going into the building files and reducing the cost by 1 more gold so I could use them more. I'm not doing it at the moment, but it has crossed my mind.

I don't play wrong, but I do play different than most players that do use Slavery. I'm a Builder 1st and thru this mod I've been pushed to become more of a Defender until I'm attacked, as I now make sure I have enough Military to stop the attack and turn the table on the attacker. So I don't leave my core cities with only 2 defenders as has been suggested. Cause I've Lost core cities doing that. All cities have strong Mil presence in them.

This current game is the 1st time I've built more than 1 Trading Post! I have 6 cities now out of 15 with it. That's a 1st! And I squirmed over having to do that. But with Seal maker and Counting something or other I can mitigate the +5 crime from it. I try very hard to keep Crime below 150 in any of my cities. And I do have some that only have 40 or 50 crime level. To be honest I'm still not sold on this whole Crime addition, but I'm slowly adapting to it. I have to if I want to keep playing C2C.

JosEPh
 
3. I Never use Slavery, Ever. If more ppl would leave that Civic alone then they would start to see the pinch you can get into until certain Civics and buildings become available.

Slavery was the norm rather than the exception in the ancient world, tho that does sound like an interesting way to play - gotta try it some time.

In regards to crime, you could try what I did and just build every crime building that gives gold - you'll get lots of crime, but for me at least the gold income from the buildings more than covers it. Some of the crime buildings (smuggler's shanty! :love:) give massive amounts of gold.
 
3. I Never use Slavery, Ever. If more ppl would leave that Civic alone then they would start to see the pinch you can get into until certain Civics and buildings become available.

Neither do I. I usually use Barter or Coinage for a good part of the early game. I still don't have money problems (science is still at 100%).

Also don't be afraid of crime buildings like Harbors or Jewelers (except for may Bandits Hideouts). Crime is very manageable. My cities fluctuate between 50 to 150 and I only have 2 Town Watchmen per city. Most of the time I can bring in between 100 to 500 gold per turn or even more in later game.

I am not even that good at getting wonders or religions either. Most of my money is purely building the various building types. Note that I play on large map, snail speed and Emperor difficulty.
 
3. You know neither do I. Only did that one test game to see what all the fuss was about. I also build most +crime buildings and compensate with having Town Watchmen to keep the Crime down. The "level" to avoid for me is 75 in the earlier game (Classical) and I make sure I have Town Watchmen enough to keep it below that in all my cities. Policing III on them too though that's with Aggressive Trait which makes it easier to get there. Aggressive Trait just got a lot better due to that...
I use Barter for a long, long time to keep inflation to zero. That helps money a lot.

Cheers
 
I stay with Barter till Coinage is available and then switch to it. I may have to start waiting longer as my Inflation is hitting 35+% @950BC and City maintenance is close to 25%. Civic upkeep is ~20% with Units and the other category making up the rest. Just to get Inflation back down to 25% and City Maint below 20% would go a long way.

Okay I'll start adding in the harbor and river bldg lines and see what it looks like. If it generates enough cash flow to pay for several TW's per city AND keeps the Crime level around 100 or lower then I'll loosen up a bit on the Crime bldgs. If it accomplishes that task then I'll see how it goes on getting back to building Libraries and such in each city again.

But I do need to point this out, even with only limited research bldgs I can keep pace with the Tech leaders and usually I become the tech leader. Of course this is mitigated by only play testing on Noble level. I also have restricted myself to only founding 2 to 4 of the religions. So my level of research from Monasteries is also reduced, especially with my 1st religion being Tengri which gets No monasteries and No research help.

JosEPh
 
Regarding slavery, I saw this a while back, but that was during the slavery/patrician debate and so I did not bring it up then. However, now that that combo has been fixed, I'd like to point out that there is an advanced slavery modcomp which has some really interesting ideas. Not sure though how hard that would be to incorporate.
 
Regarding slavery, I saw this a while back, but that was during the slavery/patrician debate and so I did not bring it up then. However, now that that combo has been fixed, I'd like to point out that there is an advanced slavery modcomp which has some really interesting ideas. Not sure though how hard that would be to incorporate.

Yes, I saw it and think it has some interesting ideas, some of which we could do now. I refuse to work in C++ any more so someone else will need to merge the AI code. I will see if we have a slavery thread and reopen it if we do, otherwise I will create a new one and move as much of the discussion we have had there.
 
I was really liking where we were going with our slave conversations earlier so we'd have to be selective about what to adopt from that mod I think.
 
Regarding slavery, I saw this a while back, but that was during the slavery/patrician debate and so I did not bring it up then. However, now that that combo has been fixed, I'd like to point out that there is an advanced slavery modcomp which has some really interesting ideas. Not sure though how hard that would be to incorporate.

It is not fixed, or fixed in some way i don't know about. Patricianism description says -1g per Slave, but slaves are being settled in cities as Citizen, thus generating +1 gold.

At least that's what i have in current game (todays SVN).
 
It is not fixed, or fixed in some way i don't know about. Patricianism description says -1g per Slave, but slaves are being settled in cities as Citizen, thus generating +1 gold.

At least that's what i have in current game (todays SVN).

They wont be, they will be settled as slaves. This is a major change so did not get into v25.
 
The reason I wanted the Revivalist Church to cost gold (or maintenance) is that I think it needs some kind of cost beyond the opportunity cost of spending hammers to build it. Not because of the building itself, but because of the civic.

I don't like industrial or modern civics "obsoleting" ones from the previous era, because I don't feel they have in reality. Certainly when it comes to religion. However, from a gameplay perspective, newer civics should give you a reason to consider switching. I feel like a new civic should, if it's in keeping with my strategy for a game, make me seriously consider taking an anarchy hit to adopt it. It takes anarchy (or planning a Golden Age) to change to Intolerant, Secularized or Atheist, which is much more of an opportunity cost... and they seem kind of lame in comparison to State Church and Free Church.

Intolerant is more of a situational civic to run if you can afford anarchy before ramping up for war or in response to a wardec, so it has a role, if not one I've ever found necessary. Atheist gives a lot of beakers, although again it doesn't seem worth it compared to state religion benefits. (Why does it give all those beakers, anyway? The Soviet Union is the only enforced atheist society that made major scientific strides, and it still fell behind.)

Secularized... what is it for? Going back to AND and continuing into C2C, I never see AI civs adopt this, with good reason. +Culture and Happiness are its big selling points, and neither of those are hard to get without it.

I also don't care for the Secularized name, considering when it becomes available. Does it represent separation of church and state and freedom of religion in the 18th century, or secularization in the 20th century (mostly the latter half, at that)? As the techs are currently constituted, it seems like this should be Pluralism, and what's currently called Atheism changed to Secularized.

Re: Slavery, Patrician and gold. Tried going without Slavery in my last game, but I did adopt Patrician. I was still able to stay at 100% beakers almost all the way through to medieval and had 1000s of gold surplus. Monarch difficulty, C2C Continents map, but I had early lucky breaks with really nice goodie huts. Where maintenance costs are concerned, it seems like the big issue is how many cities you found or conquer.

In this case, I jumped out to three early because I got a Tribe from a hut and it taxed my economy, I stabilized, jumped out to six to secure my desired borders and it taxed my economy again. Then I sat on 6 as long as I could before having to worry about someone expanding by ship to the peninsula I'd blocked off. Moved up to 9, by then I had enough +gold buildings to soak the cost of expansion - it did push my gold into the negative until I could get +gold buildings off the ground in the new cities, but I had a large enough treasury to run at a deficit for a while.

If I'd gone to nine cities and filled up the available space as soon as possible, or attacked, I would definitely have broken the bank.

EDIT: My biggest complaint about Slavery is that for the longest time it's the only way to get use out of cottages! :U It's effectively +C on cottages in addition to its listed effects, because it's either Slavery or Barter until you get Coinage, which often comes much later. If Barter didn't have -C on cottages, Slavery wouldn't be the strictly better choice every game and it would depend on how you wanted to structure your economy.
 
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