C2C: Promotions

[Thunderbrd]

Can you make the Commando (use enemy roads) promo available earlier please? Using a road isn't exactly rocket surgery is it? It is quite hard to get even without the tech prereq (that is of course, other than on uniques, heroes and many Mounteds that - bizarrely - start with it), so why not make it available pretty much with the first paths in Prehistoric. If not, at least with Mud Paths or whatever they are in early Ancient.

Then you could take it off Horsemen and Elephant Riders etc. and make them earn it.

That makes a lot of sense. Might have to remind me later as it's not yet critical but here's some perspective:

Commando was kind of a secret trick built into the original vanilla core. Here it's lost a lot of meaning. It used to require doing EVERYTHING you possibly could to earn a city that could build units with this promotion out of the gate and that ability would be earnable only at the late modern portion of the game (the end game anyhow).

Why was this so useful? Because in a full on large scale nuclear war where you were trying to blow the whole rest of the world to hell and capture it in such a small period of time (2 or 3 rounds from declaring war) before global warming started sinking in, the strike speed provided by high speed movements with this promotion was unparalleled. You could easily rush in capturing city after city with a healthy number of commando units built out of your primary military production city to follow up on the devastation unleashed by the nuclear arsenal. 1 round wars were quite possible.

My wife and I spent a months long game planning to strike all other targets on the globe, backing it up with rushing in with commandos and the effect, although it took a very long time to setup, was to accomplish a 2 round global conquest from nations that had earned up til then about 1/4 of the world to that point.

As you can see, the meaning of the commando promotion has been completely diluted and since it has, you're absolutely right about what's necessary to be done with it. I even think we could split up the promotion into a few promotions with the same effect that are accessed differently based on what CC we're talking about. Example: Wheeled would gain access to it very quickly and easily while Mounted, fairly easily, while those on foot, very difficult.

 

[Snofru1]

Can you make the Commando (use enemy roads) promo available earlier please? Using a road isn't exactly rocket surgery is it? It is quite hard to get even without the tech prereq (that is of course, other than on uniques, heroes and many Mounteds that - bizarrely - start with it), so why not make it available pretty much with the first paths in Prehistoric. If not, at least with Mud Paths or whatever they are in early Ancient.

Then you could take it off Horsemen and Elephant Riders etc. and make them earn it.

I am against this for 2 reasons:

1. Commando is a really game-braking promotion. It makes offensive warfare way too easy.
2. In ancient times aggressors were never able to travel as fast as the defendors, probably due to logistic reasons - the troops had to be provided with everything in hostile land. Troops could move quickly but really conquering and subduing a large empire took years while travelling would take weeks or months (Alexander the great who really was quick needed about 10 years to conquer Persia). That only changed a lot when railroads were built. In 1870 the german troops only needed about 6 weeks to reach Paris (but just transporting troops in your own country would still have been much quicker). At that time there also was the strategy of "bypassing" well-defended places by just beleaguering them and sending the majority of troops to strategically most important targets. That´s what I think the Commando Promotion stands for.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I am against this for 2 reasons:

1. Commando is a really game-braking promotion. It makes offensive warfare way too easy.
2. In ancient times aggressors were never able to travel as fast as the defendors, probably due to logistic reasons - the troops had to be provided with everything in hostile land. Troops could move quickly but really conquering and subduing a large empire took years while travelling would take weeks or months (Alexander the great who really was quick needed about 10 years to conquer Persia). That only changed a lot when railroads were built. In 1870 the german troops only needed about 6 weeks to reach Paris (but just transporting troops in your own country would still have been much quicker). At that time there also was the strategy of "bypassing" well-defended places by just beleaguering them and sending the majority of troops to strategically most important targets. That´s what I think the Commando Promotion stands for.

All true but it would be an improvement over giving the promo for free to the fastest units of the early eras, no?

 

[Snofru1]

All true but it would be an improvement over giving the promo for free to the fastest units of the early eras, no?

Oh yes, definitely. IMO it should never be given for free before industrial. In fact I would not even have it available before industrial...

 

[Yudishtira]

It takes 5 promos anyway (requires Combat 4). That's 5 other promos foregone - City Raider, Woodsman, Guerrilla, Shock, Cover etc.

If you have 5 promos spare to give your entire army Commando, the fault lies elsewhere. It will still only be a small minority of "pillage specialists" that get it. Yes it could also be a small (and of course siegeless) "rapid deployment force" - I don't see why defenders should not be able to deal with that.

Rather than making offensive warfare too easy, I would say it takes the unnecessary tedium out of it.

 

[ElSlipperyPete]

hello. great mod ty for the work. i have a question on rogues and the bandit promotion tree. what does it do? ive tried to answer this on my own but im at a loss. it says it increases crime rate right? is tht crime rate only in the opponent's city? does increase my civilizations overall crime rate? if i upgrade the rogue to an assassin will the bandit promotion be helpful? if someone could please help id be grateful.

 

[Yudishtira]

hello. great mod ty for the work. i have a question on rogues and the bandit promotion tree. what does it do? ive tried to answer this on my own but im at a loss. it says it increases crime rate right? is tht crime rate only in the opponent's city? does increase my civilizations overall crime rate? if i upgrade the rogue to an assassin will the bandit promotion be helpful? if someone could please help id be grateful.

Every tile has a crime rate, not just cities. Units with crime promos increase the crime rate in the tile where they are. (Melee and archers can get them too). So if you give them to units, ideally you want those units to spend their time in other civs' territory. Rogues and assassins can enter other civs' cities safely as long as you're not at war, so it's easier for them to benefit from crime promos.

Crime outside cities influences crime in the city, but it's a very complex relationship that is hard if not impossible to quantify.

 

[ElSlipperyPete]

ty for the reply. to clarify it seems its hard to define how crime influences a city? why would i want an assassin to who is meant to kill units to have this? wouldnt it be better to increase strength? i realize it comes down to personal preference. i have tried using assassins and rogue with mixed results. i love using spys but rogues and assassins seem lacking. still new to c2c so maybe its me... thanks again for the reply!

 

[Yudishtira]

ty for the reply. to clarify it seems its hard to define how crime influences a city? why would i want an assassin to who is meant to kill units to have this? wouldnt it be better to increase strength? i realize it comes down to personal preference. i have tried using assassins and rogue with mixed results. i love using spys but rogues and assassins seem lacking. still new to c2c so maybe its me... thanks again for the reply!

I personally have never yet given a crime promo to an assassin/rogue/ambusher. However, they (assassins & rogues) have built-in crime-spreading ability. Plus someone else's city is often/usually a better base to kill people from.

 

[charlesb96]

I personally have never yet given a crime promo to an assassin/rogue/ambusher. However, they (assassins & rogues) have built-in crime-spreading ability. Plus someone else's city is often/usually a better base to kill people from.

I will not give it to my crew, the ones I am really using, but I will give it right away to new ambushers who's only job is to pile into a foreign city, raise the crime rate skyhigh and drive that city to rebel. Then they move on to another city and repeat.

 

[DRJ]

Obviously, something is wrong with the "Heroic 2" promotion: it says "5% chance for golden age to trigger upon win". Well, after accidentaly discovering this pretty early on with my general-attached first wanderer who, luckily, was strength 2 due to a starsign (Leo, +1 strength). When I finished the "captured fire" to start a golden age I was prettty amazed that it never ended. Why was that?
On the one hand I had quite a lot animals to hunt down thx to 4 movement points (2 normal movement, +1 movement for mobility and + 1 for general special promotion as well as "moving cost halfed in forest" promotion) but on the other I never expected to kill 20 units in 20 turns to trigger a small golden age like a 5% chance would let me expect to enjoy a never ending golden age [NEGA] (20 turns is also the "small golden age" the heroic 2 promotion provides with eternity speed! 20 turns are 1/5 of normal golden age in eternity - 100 turns)

Well, to make a long story a bit shorter, my NEGA ended not because of the bug which triggers the SGA (small golden age) much more frequently than 5%, but because after I upgraded my wanderer to a hunter the heroic 2 promotion was dropped.

But I had tasted NEGA and tried to achieve it once again. Said, done, my next general was attached to a new obsidian swordsman with 5 starting xp from my capital. If I remember correctly I was able to instantly give him heroic 1, strength 1, 2, 3 and 4 and heroic 2. I then visited all the barbs in my surroundings and, again, not beating 20 units in 20 turns which, in theory, would trigger SGA 100% in average. But maybe 5-7 wins in 20 turns usually successfully expanded my NEGA...

Conclusion:

"Heroic 2" real chance is more like 20 % instead of 5 %. Suggestion: to limit it to 1 %.
Small Golden Age may be still too strong, even then, especially if because you can change civics during this time for free (not even speaking of the +1 production and +1 commerce per tile for whole empire!). So just equip 2 units with generals and beeline to "heroic 2". You will never have to go into anarchy again. Even if SGA doesn`t trigger asap, just wait a bit, it surely will.

So what can be done about this: maybe enable heroic 2 with a later tech like bronze working or something. Strength 1, 2, 3, 4 and heroic 1 are simply too easy to beeline if you know where the honey is to be found. Very, very strong honey.

 

[strategyonly]

"Heroic 2" promotion:

Are you playing on an older game,than v33, because of the change it now requires Drill 4, if playing on older game, it wont change automatically, and i asked playting about that, and he said it was correct. It is set to 5% and cant be any lower.

 

[DRJ]

Are you playing on an older game,than v33, because of the change it now requires Drill 4, if playing on older game, it wont change automatically, and i asked playting about that, and he said it was correct. It is set to 5% and cant be any lower.

Well, the date of my svn export folders says 9/29/2013 and i started my game yesterday. I needed heroic 1 + strength 1, 2, 3 and 4. Strength is the * promo, Drill is the ^, right?
If its drill indeed, that would mean it would trigger much later (archery?), good!

But *4 is available from the beginning. It would also be good if the small golden age couldn't be triggered by barbs, only fighting other real civs. The 5% it says in hover-text may also not be the 20-something that still are in unit code??!

When I looked in the pedia to recreate heroic 2 for my next general attached unit I am positive I notice *4 as prerequisite.

So you don't think its OP and anyone will only run around with this promo? At the moment, its even jucier to me than creating a commader with my first or secound general but to use first two generals as "heroic 2 NEGA farmers"...

 

[Faustmouse]

I still think it's to overpowered. Crusaders in a very good developed city easily start with enough XP to get at least to Str 4 and Drill 3... In the modern ages even more.

 

[strategyonly]

I still think it's to overpowered. Crusaders in a very good developed city easily start with enough XP to get at least to Str 4 and Drill 3... In the modern ages even more.

OK i just made it Preq Combat 6, after that i dont want to hear about it anymore thx.

 

[Faustmouse]

OK i just made it Preq Combat 6, after that i dont want to gear about it anymore thx.

Haha I know that feeling
Sorry, but a (chance of) golden age when winning a fight is something that can easily break things

 

[DRJ]

Haha I know that feeling
Sorry, but a (chance of) golden age when winning a fight is something that can easily break things

Exactly. All human players will work towards this because its not the golden age but the never ending golden age NEGA they want to achieve, which is something that breaks things even more.
I said all human players because the AI is simply too stupid most of the times to go for long-time goals, if it does achieve them, its more by chance but humans can take a lot of shortcuts with this.

Maybe the NEGA problematic wouldn't be so important if you play snail pace or something where its a 1 turn small golden age but in Eternity its 20 turns more golden age and that means A LOT.

What if the 5% chance would upon triggering, give a culture bonus to a next nearby city? like 1000 culture or so. Having a living legend, a true hero (heroic 2 promo) around, makes people more confident and happy to spread their culture to the safe surroundings...

Additionally, the chance to receive a great artist, in the next nearby city would also be like a, 1% adding up with the 5% for 1000 culture to next nearby city to a total 6% to receive some kind of bonus. those great Artists won't be able to trigger golden ages alone (except the first one of course^^) but they would be a part of it-

The prerequisite for Heroic 2 could be combat 4 again and it would lead to culture warfare in some sense. AI must be thaught to prefer to go for it as well.

Culture victory wouldn`t be so good with this, though I think a tendency would be that different cities would get the boni from the attached generals as the game progresses and borders expand. Although the Great Artists could be settled in same 5 cities... Well it could be kind of abused. Not for me though as I always disable cultural victory

 

[strategyonly]

Exactly. All human players will work towards this because its not the golden age but the never ending golden age NEGA they want to achieve, which is something that breaks things even more.
I said all human players because the AI is simply too stupid most of the times to go for long-time goals, if it does achieve them, its more by chance but humans can take a lot of shortcuts with this.

Maybe the NEGA problematic wouldn't be so important if you play snail pace or something where its a 1 turn small golden age but in Eternity its 20 turns more golden age and that means A LOT.

What if the 5% chance would upon triggering, give a culture bonus to a next nearby city? like 1000 culture or so. Having a living legend, a true hero (heroic 2 promo) around, makes people more confident and happy to spread their culture to the safe surroundings...

Additionally, the chance to receive a great artist, in the next nearby city would also be like a, 1% adding up with the 5% for 1000 culture to next nearby city to a total 6% to receive some kind of bonus. those great Artists won't be able to trigger golden ages alone (except the first one of course^^) but they would be a part of it-

The prerequisite for Heroic 2 could be combat 4 again and it would lead to culture warfare in some sense. AI must be thaught to prefer to go for it as well.

Culture victory wouldn`t be so good with this, though I think a tendency would be that different cities would get the boni from the attached generals as the game progresses and borders expand. Although the Great Artists could be settled in same 5 cities... Well it could be kind of abused. Not for me though as I always disable cultural victory

I tell you what, IF you can talk DH into doing something about it, fine, otherwise, i am done with doing stuff for it, sorry.

 

[platyping]

Are you playing on an older game,than v33, because of the change it now requires Drill 4, if playing on older game, it wont change automatically, and i asked playting about that, and he said it was correct. It is set to 5% and cant be any lower.

Don't quote me wrongly.
There was never a minimum % for python codes.
You can set it at 0.000005% if you like, just that it is a waste of time.

Anyway, a simple solution is disable it for animals and/or barbs.
What is so heoric about bullying wild boars and rabbits.

 

[strategyonly]

Anyway, a simple solution is disable it for animals and/or barbs.
What is so heroic about bullying wild boars and rabbits.

I would have no idea on how to do that??