C2C - Units

[Vokarya]

Well I have been playing some test games on the Prehistoric Area and I am not sure if this is the right place to post this but I have two questions:

1) Does anyone bother with building the Brute Unit? I don't see really the purpose behind it. I never built any and it obsoletes way early to Clubman that I don't understand really it's point.

2) The Wanderer. Again same thing do people usually use the Wanderer? I don't use it too often either. I usually wait until Trackers at least to begin scouting or sometimes the Clubman.

Just the questions for now. I plan on adding more as I play and perhaps look to help. This mod is really great and I really enjoy it.

I always build exactly ONE Wanderer. This is to explore any goody huts that show up in the initial exploration. I almost never build Brutes, but I have built Stone Throwers as early extra city garrison forces.

 

[Alex Costa]

I always build exactly ONE Wanderer. This is to explore any goody huts that show up in the initial exploration. I almost never build Brutes, but I have built Stone Throwers as early extra city garrison forces.

Perhaps the Brute could also have a bonus against Stone Throwers? Just to make it a bit more useful? I feel it is such a waste of unit and it is just there so we don't start with a 2 Melee Unit off the bat that can attack and explore not just defend.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Perhaps the Brute could also have a bonus against Stone Throwers? Just to make it a bit more useful? I feel it is such a waste of unit and it is just there so we don't start with a 2 Melee Unit off the bat that can attack and explore not just defend.

I think it would be better if we started with a Brute instead of a Clubman.

 

[Alex Costa]

I think it would be better if we started with a Brute instead of a Clubman.

Actually don't we start with the Stone Thrower already? Overall the Stone Thrower is much better than the Brute. I really see no point on the Brute. Still would like to know if anyone actually bother building it with Stone Throwers available and Clubman not far out.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I build Stone Throwers to defend my cities until I can get Slingers.

 

[Alex Costa]

I build Stone Throwers to defend my cities until I can get Slingers.

Yes that is the point. No one really bothers with Brutes. Most of the times people just tech to Clubman right away to have a unit for offensive purposes or they just turtle Stone Throwers until they get Slingers. I am pretty sure I have not even seen the AI build any Brutes. Oh well I know they are probably more concerns here it's just I don't particularly like units that have no use whatsoever. And I can't figure a good one for the Brute.

Edit: I will look to other parts of the tech tree once I can play through them.

 

[Hydromancerx]

That's not true I have seen AI with Brutes before. I suspect since they don't always beeline to Clubman like a player might do.

Remember Brutes are made to be the most basic of units. I have also made them when I tried out an Eternity game where my only choice was to build them.

 

[Alex Costa]

That's not true I have seen AI with Brutes before. I suspect since they don't always beeline to Clubman like a player might do.

Must be rare then. Still I guess there is probably no problem with it. I just think it's because I always value the defense of the Stone Thrower much more. And perhaps the same applies to other players as well. I wonder if the Brute however should get a small buff to at least prove itself as an alternative to Stone Throwers or not.

Sorry if I am probably looking too much into a unit whose window of use is perhaps the first 12 turns on like Snail speed. It's just once again me not liking stuff that is not much used.

 

[Alex Costa]

That's not true I have seen AI with Brutes before. I suspect since they don't always beeline to Clubman like a player might do.

Remember Brutes are made to be the most basic of units. I have also made them when I tried out an Eternity game where my only choice was to build them.

I guess they can be useful on Eternity to scout for a bit. Well I guess I have to try out a Eternity game one of these days. Anyway I guess there is no problem with the Brute sorry if this contributed to nothing.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Alex Costa

Also its way better to get a bunch of Brutes from a hostile goodie hut than it is to get a bunch of Clubman.

 

[Alex Costa]

@Alex Costa

Also its way better to get a bunch of Brutes from a hostile goodie hunt than it is to get a bunch of Clubman.

Yeah I guess there is that. Though I usually pop goody huts with recon units.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Why build Brutes over Stone Throwers, even on Eternity?

If you fight a Neanderthal on a hill or in a city, the Stone Thrower is just as good as the Brute. If you fight a Neanderthal in the open field with a Brute, the Neanderthal will just straight up win. The only time the Brute is better is against a Neanderthal when in a (non-hill) forest and even then it seems like he stands next to no chance of winning.

Meanwhile the Stone Thrower is never any worse against animals, and better on a hill.

Even with Start As Minors on I've never had a fight with an AI in this era, so maybe that's what's skewing my perception. Even then, though, it seems like you'd always be better off with a Stone Thrower, since the Brute would often (hills, cities) be worse and only ever "better" against enemy Brutes... who would have the same bonus!

Sadly, I'm not sure how to make the Brute any BETTER. Would he be OP if he were Power 2 with no bonuses of any kind, instead of Power 1 +25% vs Melee? But then the Clubman is a comparatively small upgrade.

 

[Alex Costa]

Why build Brutes over Stone Throwers, even on Eternity?

If you fight a Neanderthal on a hill or in a city, the Stone Thrower is just as good as the Brute. If you fight a Neanderthal in the open field with a Brute, the Neanderthal will just straight up win. The only time the Brute is better is against a Neanderthal when in a (non-hill) forest and even then it seems like he stands next to no chance of winning.

Meanwhile the Stone Thrower is never any worse against animals, and better on a hill.

Even with Start As Minors on I've never had a fight with an AI in this era, so maybe that's what's skewing my perception. Even then, though, it seems like you'd always be better off with a Stone Thrower, since the Brute would often (hills, cities) be worse and only ever "better" against enemy Brutes... who would have the same bonus!

Sadly, I'm not sure how to make the Brute any BETTER. Would he be OP if he were Power 2 with no bonuses of any kind, instead of Power 1 +25% vs Melee? But then the Clubman is a comparatively small upgrade.

Maybe the Brute is better as it is. After all better to get hit by Brutes in Huts than Clubman.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@MoogleEmpMog

Well before there was a Tribal Guardian unit you could do a "Brute Rush" and take a 2nd city before the AI defend their cities with more than one unit.

 

[MaXimillionZero]

2) The Wanderer. Again same thing do people usually use the Wanderer? I don't use it too often either. I usually wait until Trackers at least to begin scouting or sometimes the Clubman.

Seeing how vital subdued animals are in overtaking the AI, I always build at least one wanderer, usually several.

I think it would be better if we started with a Brute instead of a Clubman.

Why start with a completely useless unit? A brute will die the first time it encounters a Str 3 animal, which could easily be in the first 15 turns. Meanwhile, the starting clubman can, with a bit of luck and careful play, survive for the whole game.

 

[Snofru1]

Why not keep the brute as it is and just make it slightly cheaper to build?

 

[Alex Costa]

Seeing how vital subdued animals are in overtaking the AI, I always build at least one wanderer, usually several.


Why start with a completely useless unit? A brute will die the first time it encounters a Str 3 animal, which could easily be in the first 15 turns. Meanwhile, the starting clubman can, with a bit of luck and careful play, survive for the whole game.

I agree with the Wanderer now that I have thought better.

Thing is you don't start with it right away. You start with the ability to build it but no Human player will likely build it in favour of the Stone Thrower.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why not keep the brute as it is and just make it slightly cheaper to build?

I agree with the Wanderer now that I have thought better.

Thing is you don't start with it right away. You start with the ability to build it but no Human player will likely build it in favour of the Stone Thrower.

Alright. Been listening here for a bit.

I like the idea of making the brute cheaper by perhaps 25% - 50%. And an interesting twist would be to give it +10% City Attack, which kinda begs for it to be applied in an immediate invasion strategy. I sometimes struggle with trying to find any reason to build them too. To make this more valid, I'd suggest the tribal guardian be given VSBarbs tag application rather than an inherent City Defense so that there IS some small vulnerability from such a neighbor's attack.

But you really can't knock wanderers. One can wait for scouts but if your wanderer(s) do well, you can take a 'better' path through the tech tree without a scout beeline - I usually don't bank on that but it could be done. Wanderers are great units for their era but it IS possible to over utilize them and not recognize that scouts can and probably should quickly replace them.

 

[Alex Costa]

Alright. Been listening here for a bit.

I like the idea of making the brute cheaper by perhaps 25% - 50%. And an interesting twist would be to give it +10% City Attack, which kinda begs for it to be applied in an immediate invasion strategy. I sometimes struggle with trying to find any reason to build them too. To make this more valid, I'd suggest the tribal guardian be given VSBarbs tag application rather than an inherent City Defense so that there IS some small vulnerability from such a neighbor's attack.

But you really can't knock wanderers. One can wait for scouts but if your wanderer(s) do well, you can take a 'better' path through the tech tree without a scout beeline - I usually don't bank on that but it could be done. Wanderers are great units for their era but it IS possible to over utilize them and not recognize that scouts can and probably should quickly replace them.

I like that change. I figure that makes it a proper predecessor to the Clubman. Maybe the Clubman and Spiked Clubman could also have +10% City Attack? Maybe. Afterall they later upgrade to the Stone Maceman. If they upgrade to the Stone Spearman they lose that.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I like that change. I figure that makes it a proper predecessor to the Clubman. Maybe the Clubman and Spiked Clubman could also have +10% City Attack? Maybe. Afterall they later upgrade to the Stone Maceman. If they upgrade to the Stone Spearman they lose that.

Good idea on carrying it through the club line I think. I'm also going to repeat a request for clubs to branch out into bone swordsmen and the pure city attack could carry into that line and strengthen a bit to make it more worthwhile than a stone maceman unit when attacking a city with non-melee defenders.