C2C - Units

But won't city defense buildings damage them? Such as Bombard Towers? Even if they are not engaging combat, standing next to a city will hurt you.

As for "in front" it may be true for a Battering Ram but a Trebuchet would be near the back of the invasion. Possibly out of the range of the defending Archers.

Those methods of Bombardment mechanism are not bombardment but rather are applying a sort of 'terrain damage' in effect. Those city adjacent 'attacks' can and do damage the lead units just fine. What we're talking about there is the bombardment abilities of units themselves (like catapults for example.) Currently they will never damage the lead unit of the stack they bombard.
 
Well the Mortar spelling should be fixed. And here is what they are supose to be ...


Link to video.

As for their vagueness anything to help clear up their purposes would be great. However when you look at their stats its kinda obvious.

Culverin
+100% vs Siege Units

Falconet
+ 50% vs Archers
+ 50% vs Melee
+ 50% vs Gunpowder

Great Bombard/Mortar
+75% City Attack
-10% vs Melee
-10% vs Mounted

Heavy Cannon
+50% City Attack
 
@ Hydromancerx i think i have your solution the Flaming Arrow from Age of Empires 3

http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Flaming_Arrow

or move the hwacha from a national unit to a normal unit and boost its strenght and get rid of the +50% city attack

in any case your best bet for a unit that would fill the gap would be an early gunpowder involving the use of rockets instead of arrows
 
As to your suggestion, that wouldn't be terribly different to archery bombard I suppose but there's a couple of problems with that solution:

In the case of the Ballista Elephant, you could replace its Ranged Bombard capability entirely with Archer Bombard. In fact, I would recommend it. I would like to see the Frigate's ship-to-ship bombard capability changed over to Archer Bombard too (however their shore - ideally including ships in port - bombardment should still be damaging multiple units:sad:)

1) It would immediately divulge from the classic method by which CivIV has always resolved Bombardment (I'm not against this as long as it's a much IMPROVED mechanism.)

As a rule, any divergence from Firaxis game mechanics is an improvement...:lol:

2) A hard coded solution like that seems to be a rough patch. It would be preferable for many reasons to build something more intricate. As I look forward to equipments and further proliferation of specific unit ability enhancing promotionlines, it would be nice to be able to enable units to enhance/manipulate their bombardment capabilities.

However, this is why I feel it leads back to a VERY involved unit evaluation to establish distinct Bombardment tag applications. The first thing we'd need to do is isolate and identify all units that should be able to bombard then arrange them in unit upgrade charts that at least loosely track the eras in which they come into play. From there we can look at assigning improving gradients of bombard damage, accuracy (which we already do have a tag for), and an amount of units that can be bombarded..

If you are motivated enough to go the whole hog, yes that would be preferable. If not, the hard-coding will be adequate imho. And even if you are enthusiastic for the complete overhaul, in the short-term the 'rough patch' would be good anyway.

Question: Does anyone besides me feel that it's not quite fair or right that the lead unit in a stack is NEVER going to be damaged by bombardment? If I'm going to consider reworking the mechanism, I'd like to propose changing that part of it which will easily be done moving past the Collateral = Bombardment method. Seems to be a problem for city battles in particular that the best unit there, the unit closest to the front, will never be injured by bombard attacks.

I for one totally agree. I can't think of any good reason why bombard damage should not affect the lead unit - from either the realism or the game mechanics perspective. It seems like specifically a cavalry flank attack mechanic...that lost its way or got shanghaied for no good reason into bombardment...

The only problem with all of this is if it doesn't have AI support. I can totally see it's great to put all sorts of cool new stuff in that only the player can do. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it! But without AI support, it is unavoidably going to make the game easier to win, and I can see no attractive means of balancing that...
 
In all the accounts of battles I have read where bombardment is happening it is not the units out front nor the units at the back that take the brunt of the bombardment on the battle field but those in the middle. This is less so with cannon and specialised ammunition like chain shot was designed to hit the front lines. The point being that you want the bombardment in the middle where it hits more targets. If you are going to hit the front then it needs to have an increased chance of missing either falling short or because the units have more space to move and duck.
 
YES, I also find it unrealistic that you can't hit the leading defender with collateral damage! Change it straight away :crazyeye:
Yeah, I think it would be better for strategic balance too... keeps you from getting those situations where there's almost nothing you can do to weaken that really strong lead defender no matter how much you sacrifice against him.

Well the Mortar spelling should be fixed. And here is what they are supose to be ...
So they are an EARLY Mortar. Or 'French Mortar' unlike the more Modern Mortars depicted here. I think we've been lacking these modern ones in C2C for too long. And the cool thing is if we make them bombard specialists then we could really have a whole solid unit line context for them to remain within as well as (via that wiki page) a wealth of upgrade unit concepts all the way up through the modern era. No need to even have them blend in or join with other upgrade paths.

I'd love to see them unable to attack and only able to bombard but be REALLY good at bombarding.

As for their vagueness anything to help clear up their purposes would be great. However when you look at their stats its kinda obvious.

Culverin
+100% vs Siege Units

Falconet
+ 50% vs Archers
+ 50% vs Melee
+ 50% vs Gunpowder

Great Bombard/Mortar
+75% City Attack
-10% vs Melee
-10% vs Mounted

Heavy Cannon
+50% City Attack
I think it's the city attack not jiving with the city defense bombard abilities making units that aren't so great at city attack better at bombarding the defenses of those cities than the ones that ARE good at city attack that's enhancing some confusion for me... I'd suggest we focus them in a little more clearly on field vs urban and keep them aligned in this way throughout their upgrade paths.

btw... are the culverin or falconet (without looking at the pedia) defensive only or would they be simply 2 differing types of field attack siege?

@ Hydromancerx i think i have your solution the Flaming Arrow from Age of Empires 3

http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Flaming_Arrow

or move the hwacha from a national unit to a normal unit and boost its strenght and get rid of the +50% city attack

in any case your best bet for a unit that would fill the gap would be an early gunpowder involving the use of rockets instead of arrows
Let's please leave flaming arrows out of the picture for now as that will be addressed with equipments... I can also see explosive tipped ballistas - they do it with modern harpoons and surely they tried to do this some with those weapons as explosive technologies proliferated in the late renaissance.

In the case of the Ballista Elephant, you could replace its Ranged Bombard capability entirely with Archer Bombard. In fact, I would recommend it. I would like to see the Frigate's ship-to-ship bombard capability changed over to Archer Bombard too (however their shore - ideally including ships in port - bombardment should still be damaging multiple units:sad:)



As a rule, any divergence from Firaxis game mechanics is an improvement...:lol:



If you are motivated enough to go the whole hog, yes that would be preferable. If not, the hard-coding will be adequate imho. And even if you are enthusiastic for the complete overhaul, in the short-term the 'rough patch' would be good anyway.



I for one totally agree. I can't think of any good reason why bombard damage should not affect the lead unit - from either the realism or the game mechanics perspective. It seems like specifically a cavalry flank attack mechanic...that lost its way or got shanghaied for no good reason into bombardment...

The only problem with all of this is if it doesn't have AI support. I can totally see it's great to put all sorts of cool new stuff in that only the player can do. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it! But without AI support, it is unavoidably going to make the game easier to win, and I can see no attractive means of balancing that...

In all the accounts of battles I have read where bombardment is happening it is not the units out front nor the units at the back that take the brunt of the bombardment on the battle field but those in the middle. This is less so with cannon and specialised ammunition like chain shot was designed to hit the front lines. The point being that you want the bombardment in the middle where it hits more targets. If you are going to hit the front then it needs to have an increased chance of missing either falling short or because the units have more space to move and duck.
Considering these comments I'm thinking a total bombardment overhaul that takes these kinds of varieties into consideration is warranted.
 
@ Hydromancerx i think i have your solution the Flaming Arrow from Age of Empires 3

http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Flaming_Arrow

or move the hwacha from a national unit to a normal unit and boost its strenght and get rid of the +50% city attack

in any case your best bet for a unit that would fill the gap would be an early gunpowder involving the use of rockets instead of arrows

Oh good idea! I forgot about those so like ...

Archer (4) -> Bellybowman (5) -> Oxybeles (6) -> Scorpion (7) -> Ballista (8) -> Heavy Ballista (9) -> Flaming Arrow (11) -> Ribauldequin (15) -> Organ Gun (20) -> Gatling Gun (25) -> Machine Gun (30) -> Trench Machine Gun (35) -> Modern Machine Gun (55) -> Unmanned Machine Gun (110)
 
First Trench Maching Gun (World War I machine guns) then Machine Gun (WW II machine guns) and then Modern Machine Gun (post WWII era machine guns)
 
First Trench Maching Gun (World War I machine guns) then Machine Gun (WW II machine guns) and then Modern Machine Gun (post WWII era machine guns)

Its based on the tech order.

- Semi-Automatic Weapons = Machine Gun (30)
- Trench Warfare = Trench Machine Gun (35)
- Automatic Weapons = Modern Machine Gun (55)
 
Its based on the tech order.

- Semi-Automatic Weapons = Machine Gun (30)
- Trench Warfare = Trench Machine Gun (35)
- Automatic Weapons = Modern Machine Gun (55)

Then it is wrong. For semi-automatic weapons era we have Gatling Gun.
 
Then it is wrong. For semi-automatic weapons era we have Gatling Gun.

But the Gatling Gun is at Rifling tech.

--- Prehistoric Era ---
Stone Thrower (1) = None
Slinger (2) = Binding
Atlatlist (4) = Atlatl Making
--- Ancient Era ---
- Archer (4) = Archery
--- Classical Era ---
- Bellybowman (5) = Ancient Machinery
- Oxybeles (6) = Ancient Machinery AND Iron Working
- Scorpion (7) = Ancient Ballistics
- Ballista (8) = Siege Warfare
--- Medieval Era ---
- Heavy Ballista (9) = Engineering
--- Renaissance Era ---
- Fire Arrow (11) = Gunpowder
- Ribauldequin (15) = Metallurgy
- Organ Gun (20) = Explosives
- Gatling Gun (25) = Rifling
--- Industrial Era ---
- Machine Gun (30) = Semi-Automatic Weapons
- Trench Machine Gun (35) = Trench Warfare
--- Modern Era ---
- Modern Machine Gun (55) = Manufacturing AND Automatic Weapons
--- Transhuman Era ---
- Unmanned Machine Gun (110) = Military Robotics
 
Rifling and Riflemans are napoleonic era tech and unit. In this era Gatling Gun dont exist.
Gatling Gun was constructed in time of American Civil War when first Semi Automatic rifles appear (Colts and Winchester rifle).

First real Machine Gun was Maxim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_gun) and he was constructed little before WWI but in WWI he was used in mass in trenches.
 
So what should be done? Obviously Trench Machine Gun at Trench Warfare and you are saying Gatling Gun at Semi-Automatic Weapons. So should it go

Gatling Gun -> Trench Machine Gun -> Machine Gun -> Modern Machine Gun


And then where would the Machine Gun go?

Here is a tech tree.

I am thinking maybe Automatic Weapons. It put its about WWIIish.

So maybe like ...

- Organ Gun (20) = Explosives
- Gatling Gun (25) = Semi-Automatic Weapons
- Trench Machine Gun (35) = Trench Warfare
- Machine Gun (45) = Automatic Weapons
- Modern Machine Gun (55) = Manufacturing AND Automatic Weapons

Sound good?
 
- Organ Gun (20) = Explosives
- Gatling Gun (25) = Semi-Automatic Weapons
- Trench Machine Gun (35) = Trench Warfare
- Machine Gun (45) = Automatic Weapons
- Modern Machine Gun (55) = Manufacturing AND Automatic Weapons

Sound good?

Yea, thats correct :)
 
Back
Top Bottom