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C3C - SID - Rise of Carthage - as guided by Spoonwood

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by AnthonyIII, Dec 16, 2011.

  1. AnthonyIII

    AnthonyIII Warlord

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    Turn 2550BC: Swap 001 to worker. 001 uses forest/game - growth in 1. Look around. Hit enter.

    Turn 2510BC: 001 grows. Our two workers finishes the mine. Split workers, 1 to BG across river (2 turns to get there), 2 to hill across river (1 turn).Curragh continues southwards.

    Turn 2470BC: Send new worker to the 2 spot outside of 001. Worker on hill begins roading, worker nr 2 arrives at BG. Think I know where to settle 003. Curragh further south. Sticking to the coast. Checking in with Khan, he still doesn't have Masonary or the Alphabet. He has BW, Pottery, The Wheel, WC and 10g. We cant afford Pottery by lump sum. We have 191g, +9 pr turn. Writing in 19.

    Turn 2430BC: Worker on BG starts roading. Curragh moves further south, nothing of interest.

    Turn 2390BC: Worker start chopping forest outside 001. Build is set to curragh. Curragh moves along island. 002 grows to size 6. Swap tiles to forest as advised by Spoonwood. Lux to 30%. No new techs discovered by the Mongols.

    Turn 2350BC: Road on BG finished. Starts mining. Curragh moves, see nothing.

    Turn 2310BC: Curragh moves, nothing new. Worker from hill to reg BG to road. Enter.

    Turn 2270BC: Curragh finished in 001, after forest chop. Worker roads the newly chopped BG. Send out curragh 2. Worker roads reg BG outside 002. Curragh 1 starts doubling island. Could probably try a little suicide run soon. 002 grows in 2. No new techs discovered by Khan. Turn 2230BC: Curraghs move, nothing. Enter.

    Turn 2190BC: The Japanese finshes The Collosus. Move curraghs then decide to stop my turn. Leave next moves to Elephantium because Khan now has CB! And is still missing both our techs... We could trade if we wanted but maybe we sould meet some more civs. Seems like a good place to stop for me. All three workers are awaiting orders. 002 has hit size 7 and are using both forests. What jobs do we assign to our workers? Do we trade with Khan?

    Spoiler :
     

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  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I did give you a lot to process at once, didn't I?

    1. Did you change 002 to the forest before clicking "next turn" when you opened the save? We wanted those shields from the forest for 002 and the grassland square for food for 001.

    2. In general, you want to road any square before leaving it. The workers should have both finishing mining, and then both roaded since they were already stacked. Or one roads, and one moves to the hill (NOT to the BG). Reaching the BG should have taken only one turn of movement that way. See how that saves worker turns overall? Or did I misunderstand your notes, and you did this anyways? We don't have a save.

    No trades with Khan yet. We'd need some sort of reason to make a trade. We won't put in a temple until after the first wonder, and with another contact Ceremonial Burial becomes cheaper. If Khan gets Mysticism, we'll probably get a wonder initiation of a build on The Oracle. The only thing we can do with Khan now consists of seeing what he'll offer for Alphabet and Masonry. You need to check this tech by tech NOT with both Alphabet and Masonry in the same potential deal. Even if Khan came close to learning one of these techs, I wouldn't make any trades yet, it's far too early.

    You may as well finish out your 10 turn set and then post your save.
     
  3. AnthonyIII

    AnthonyIII Warlord

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    Argh, I knew I shouldn't have played when I did, I was bit tired after too much christmas food... I did not swap 002 to forest when opening the save. If it's OK, I'd like to play it again and see how the two compares. I'll do exactly the same what scouting considering scouting, I'll just do as you describe above. Save is posted.

    EDIT: Have roaded and still takes to turns to the BG I mined. But I now suspect I've gotten the BG wrong, I should have moved to the BG on the left, that takes 1 turn. I mined the BG next to the unworked cow. You can see my worker in the pic above, right next to the cow.
     
  4. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I'd prefer it if you did replay that, since we had discussed this before you played (001 will also grow faster this way). Also, the worker from 001 should have first chopped the forest in the 2 spot, and then second roaded it, and then third went to the game. Did I mention that also? The other BG was the one I meant, which can get roaded first, and then can have that worker move to the BG in the north. And please road the spot on the regular grassland before moving them.
     
  5. AnthonyIII

    AnthonyIII Warlord

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    Alright, Spoonwood - I had another go. I'm glad you are so specific. How is this?

    12550BC: Swap 002 from reg G to forest. 001 gets reg G.

    2510BC: Mine finishes. Workers road that tile. 001 grows to size 2, worker in 2.

    2470BC: Worker 1 to hill. Worker 2 to BG across river. Both moves takes 1 turn.

    2430BC: Worker completes in 001, head towards forest to chop. Worker 1 roads hill, worker 2 roads BG.

    2390BC: Move curragh.

    2350BC: Worker 3 starts chopping. Worker 2 finished road on BG. Head towards another BG, next to cow, takes 1 turn. Lux to 30%. 002 using forest and reg G. Size 7 in 5.

    2310BC: Worker 2 roads new BG.

    2270BC: Worker 1 on hill is finished roading. Moves to same BG as worker two is currently roading.

    2230BC: The two workers starts to mine BG together. Curragh finished in 001. Worker 3 starts roading BG outside of 001. 001 to settler, growth in 3.

    2190BC: Zzzz....

    2150BC: Mine on BG finishes. Move curraghs. 001 grows in 1, settler in 8. Worker 3 moves to forest&game. 002 grows to 7. Move worker 1 and 2 to cow.

    Curragh moves stayed the same.
     

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  6. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Well that's better. I hope I don't sound rude or condescending throughout this. I know I wasn't exact clear throughout this.

    Good so far!

    I wasn't sure about this until I opened the save. You would have done better to have the worker south of 001 chop this turn. Why? If you don't chop, you have that worker spend one turn moving to that forest square. Then you spend another turn having another worker moving to that forest square at some point in the game. This consists of two turns of lost work vs. 1 turn of lost work (which you can't avoid) if you just have that southern worker chop that forest and then at least road it straight away. You chopped in the 2-3 spot from 001... and I'm still at a loss as to how your worker ended up there. Maybe I didn't explain what I mean by "2 spot" properly. When I say "x spot" from 001 or whatever city, I mean the spot where a unit of any sort would land if you pushed that key on the number pad of your keyboard. So, the "4" spot from 001 means a coast square, the 7 spot a coast square, the 8 spot is the grassland cow, the 9 spot is the regular grassland spot where the workers started your turn set, the 6 spot is other regular grassland spot, the 3 spot is a forest adjacent to a hill, the 2 spot is the forest adjacent to 1 coast square, and the 1 spot is the forest adjacent to 4 coast squares.

    This part sounds like you're catching on.

    1. The cow and that BG lie outside our cultural boundaries and the tiles any city can currently use, until we get a settler out there, so why rush developing them by stacking workers?

    2. You've now spent two turns moving workers to one square to develop it. Only in exceptional cases does it work better to move workers that way, and I'm not going to mention them so you can focus on understanding the general principle. In other words, only move one (1!) worker to an unroaded square.

    See above.

    If you didn't have an idea as to how to use your workers at a particular point in time, shoot me the save in a PM... or shoot me a screenshot there. But, for the purposes of this succession game, I say we just move on. I don't see this affecting our finish time on the first wonder, it just might make research and production more difficult later on for other cities.
     
  7. AnthonyIII

    AnthonyIII Warlord

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    Hmm... You're right. I should have asked what you meant by "2 spot" as I thought it was two turns away from the city. That's why he ended up down there. From now on I will know! I had my workers sent outside our borders since you wrote in post 96:" One goes to the hill across the river, another to the BG across the river. Both road. Then they look at developing the cow and the BG which we'll pick both up via the next city". I now see that I shoud not have sent both. And I guess at least one of them should have started improving the reg G in in front of 002... But yeah, let's move on unless you want me to go back and chop the correct forest. And no, you don't sound rude at all!
     
  8. bluejay

    bluejay Warlord

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    AnthonyIII, which graphics package are you using, as seen in your screenshot of #97?
     
  9. AnthonyIII

    AnthonyIII Warlord

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  10. creamcheese

    creamcheese Spreading since 1990

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    Look on the numpad on your keyboard (if you have a full keyboard). 2 is south if you hit it to move a unit. I usually give cardinal directions (N,S,E,W) but Spoonwood seems to prefer the numpad.
     
  11. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Could I swap with the next person in the roster? I won't have time to play today.

    I'm up in Rat43 as well, but this game takes a short enough time that I think I can squeeze in a set tomorrow between CCM turns :)
     
  12. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    So, here I go.

    0-2150 BC Hit enter.

    1-2110 BC swap 001 to another curragh. One worker roads the cow. The other moves to the regular grassland. Chop game and see a border outline in the east, which I might reach by a small suicide run, but there might exist a safer way to get there, so I just scout as usual with the curragh.

    2-2070 BC A worker roads, and the curragh scouts more. See grassland wheat on our homeland.

    3-2030 BC 001 curragh-settler. Mongols start The Oracle. I send the curragh east also. Worker mines cow. Curragh in the east heads back to make the contact, as I don't see a better route at the moment at least, and I don't believe one there (maybe I should have used the new curragh for this contact).

    4-1990 BC Arabs complete Oracle. Game chop completes. 001 uses a forest instead of the game for a turn, which doesn't change growth time. The game gets mined. A worker mines a hill. Send the curragh I had moving south for the contact back up north, as we certainly don't need to rush for this contact now. The Mongols won't take Masonry for The Wheel. But, I make no deal with them, since they had started the Oracle.

    5-1950 BC Swap from forest back to game. The Mongols won't even give Bronze Working for Masonry now. I still make no deal, as I'm not sure we would beat them to the Pyramids if we did trade.

    6-1910 BC Make small suicide run towards Japan. They have all our techs, furs, dyes, and 100 gold. Hit F7 and see Japan has a build on the Pyramids going on in Kyoto. Now we can get more with Masonry from the Mongols. It seems like a close call, and maybe I should trade with Temujin at this point, but I still make no deals with the Mongols.

    7-1870 BC The curragh floats. Mongols start Pyramids. Now just to check what they'll give for Alphabet every turn. They'll still give Bronze Working, Pottery, and The Wheel for Alphabet. Move worker to forest to road it.

    8-1830 BC Road game and forest. Brozne Working, Potter, and The Wheel for Alphabet now becomes "close". Japan has ivory online. I first pick up CB from the Mongols for 115 gold. Then I trade them Alphabet and 103 gold for Mysticism, The Wheel, and Bronze Working. Japan has horses, and we have two horse sources on our home island.

    9-1790 BC Rearrange 001 and 002 so that 002 uses the hill, while 001 uses the mined regular grassland. Edit that, I have 001 use a coast square and keep 002 the same.

    10-1750 BC 001 settler-warrior (then worker or settler). Have worker which completed road on game help other worker finish the mine on the hill. Swap from regular grassland to the hill, since it will now complete in the interturn. See Mongolian borders south of Japan.

    If it wasn't clear before, the settler best will go to the 9-9-9 spot (is that 3 northeast from 002?) from 002 to grab both the cow and the BG. It might come as worth it to join the two workers on the hill to 002 after the mine completes. Once we learn Writing here, we need a max run on Philosophy. Do not trade away Writing (Japan might learn it as soon as we do, but I STILL would not trade it). Best of luck!
     

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  13. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I'm really torn on whether to join those two Workers to 002. I think that will mean 50% on the lux slider! Would that actually be worth it?

    Edit: I played the first IBT and moved everything except for those two workers. We've met the Zulu, and they'll give us their 3 gold and either Pottery or Warrior Code in exchange for Mysticism.

    They also have Iron Working, but they won't part with that for mere Mysticism.
     
  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Our finish date comes as most affected by how early we build cultural buildings, because of the doubling effect of culture. An earlier build on the Pyramids will also translate into an earlier build on our little temple at the very least. It also will translate into faster growth for the other cities, so I definitely do believe it worth it here.
     
  15. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Midset report:

    001 should build Worker next.

    IBT - Writing > Philosophy
    1725 BC - Science slider to 70%, Philosophy due in 30.
    Ooh, Pyramids are down to 10 turns from 12 before the IBT. Nice planning there, Spoonwood! :thumbsup:
    The borders south of Japan turn out to be the Zulu. They are down Writing and Mysticism and up Pottery, Warrior Code, and Iron Working. They have 1 each of Horses, Incense, and Ivory connected, 8 cities listed (so 9 including capital), and 3 gold in their treasury.

    They're willing to give us Pottery *or* Warrior Code and their 3 gold in exchange for Mysticism.

    After consulting with Spoonwood, I join the two workers to 002. Sliders to 50/50 between science and lux to avoid riots; Philosophy due in 36.

    IBT - Zulu complain about our dinghy. We apologize.
    1700 - Build 003 in the spot 3 NE from 002, aka the 9-9-9 spot.
    Re-adjust 002's tile assignments and get the Pyramids due in 7.
    Worker goes to the 3-spot Forest from 001 on a roading mission.
    I decide to sell Mysticism to Shaka before he buys it from another AI. We get WC and 8 gold.
    Mongols will now offer IW, Pots, HBR, and 71 gold for Writing.
    Japan will still offer those 3 techs and all their gold. I think Mongolia is researching Writing.

    1675 - Worker starts roading the forest
    Misclick and put a dinghy in danger of sinking :(
    Mongolia now offers 3 techs + 20 gold for Writing. I'm not sure whether to
    a) take the deal
    b) Wait a turn, then make deals
    c) No trading for Writing to hopefully achieve the Philosophy slingshot

    Also, sorry to stop and ask questions so frequently! I'm kind of second-guessing myself because of this being Sid. In a DG game, I'd simply make a decision and play on; a couple of minor mistakes wouldn't sink the game. Here, though - not joining the workers to 002 could make the difference on both getting Pyramids and getting the Philosophy slingshot.

    Edit: Looking back upthread, I see Spoonwood emphatically stating "Do not trade away Writing", so I'll keep playing.

    Edit x2: Log continued...

    I also MM 002 to grow on the IBT. The new citizen will work the same forest I just vacated, so we gain an extra shield :D

    IBT - Palace expansion. We have a stone house instead of a cave :woohoo:
    1650 - The dinghy doesn't sink. I bring it back to the coast and continue exploring.
    Mongols now offer 2 techs + 20 gold for Writing; the third tech (and no gold) is "close".
    IBT - 001: Warror > Worker
    1625 - Mongols have Writing :(
     
  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    How did I forgot that we already met the Mongols on another island :lol:.

    This consists of one tech that it might come as worthwhile to trade away early so that hopefully the AIs research Polytheism. It can come as tricky though, as they might progress to Philosophy faster if you do this. Overall, I like what you did here.

    Great job on checking to see what the AIs will offer for techs.

    :) This could actually come as a good thing, though I should speak carefully here. Ideally you want the Mongols to have Writing, though probably not too early. The Mongols come as one of the tribes here likely enough to research a bunch of other techs before Philosophy, including especially Code of Laws. I've actually managed to pull off The Republic slingshot this way before on this level... though they basically need to have Writing at just the right time... it's very, very tricky, and I won't say I know the exact right time you want them to have Writing. But that the other 2 do NOT know Writing, while the Mongols do know it comes as the best possible situation here. Japan especially seems to go for Philosophy too early.

    That said, I think we can win and build the MoM without getting to Philosophy first.

    Oh... and from your 1675 BC save, did you swap 002 from the forest to the mined regular grassland that turn (it results in both faster growth and more shields)?

    We need some work started on those hills.
     
  17. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Of course! :)

    Spoiler :

    IBT - Writing > Philosophy
    1725 BC - Science slider to 70%, Philosophy due in 30.
    Ooh, Pyramids are down to 10 turns from 12 before the IBT. Nice planning there, Spoonwood! :thumbsup:
    The borders south of Japan turn out to be the Zulu. They are down Writing and Mysticism and up Pottery, Warrior Code, and Iron Working. They have 1 each of Horses, Incense, and Ivory connected, 8 cities listed (so 9 including capital), and 3 gold in their treasury.

    They're willing to give us Pottery *or* Warrior Code and their 3 gold in exchange for Mysticism.

    After consulting with Spoonwood, I join the two workers to 002. Sliders to 50/50 between science and lux to avoid riots; Philosophy due in 36.

    IBT - Zulu complain about our dinghy. We apologize.
    1700 - Build 003 in the spot 3 NE from 002, aka the 9-9-9 spot.
    Re-adjust 002's tile assignments and get the Pyramids due in 7.
    Worker goes to the 3-spot Forest from 001 on a roading mission.
    I decide to sell Mysticism to Shaka before he buys it from another AI. We get WC and 8 gold.
    Mongols will now offer IW, Pots, HBR, and 71 gold for Writing.
    Japan will still offer those 3 techs and all their gold. I think Mongolia is researching Writing.

    1675 - Worker starts roading the forest
    Misclick and put a dinghy in danger of sinking :(

    I also MM 002 to grow on the IBT. The new citizen will work the same forest I just vacated, so we gain an extra shield :D
    IBT - Palace expansion. We have a stone house instead of a cave :woohoo:
    1650 - The dinghy doesn't sink. I bring it back to the coast and continue exploring.
    Mongols now offer 2 techs + 20 gold for Writing; the third tech (and no gold) is "close".
    IBT - 001: Warror > Worker
    1625 - Mongols have Writing :(

    I'm comforted by the fact that they look isolated. I'm guessing/hoping that we're their only contact.
    The sliders are 60/40; I was able to turn down lux spending when 002 started working the tiles that 003 exposed.

    1600 -
    I think the Zulu are working on Writing; all three techs they know is now "close".

    1575 - Move Worker to hill
    Trade situation is unchanged.
    001: Worker > Worker
    Japanese are building Temple of Artemis
    1550 - Pyramids due in 1, MM 002 for growth
    Worker from 001 starts mining the BG next to the Game. The plan is to help mine the hill once that's done.
    Zulu are down to offering 3 gold out of 12 along with techs for Writing.

    002: Pyramids > Temple
    1525 - Shaka of the Zulu now has writing. It looks like he traded it to Japan; they both have Polytheism.
    1500 - zzz...

    We do have an opportunity to buy Poly and broker it to the Mongols. That should help us catch up in tech, but it might eat our gold supply.

    I'm building Workers in 001 and 003, but they can be changed to Settlers if necessary.
    The Temple in 002 can be changed to a prebuild for MoM, but I thought we might want the Temple first.

    How much trouble are we in that Japan has Writing already?

     
  18. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    If we don't change anything significantly (see below), we have 12 turns on Philosophy once the temple finishes. 002 has 16 spt, and (12*16)=192. Factoring in growth this comes as a perfect build on the MoM.

    I'm not sure. I believe we're O.K. here, since Japan will usually try to research Map Making here first, as will the Zulu. Workers seems like the right call to me, so we can develop those hills, and the potential gains, I think, outweigh the following alternative:

    We use scientists in both 001 and 003. In this case, Philosophy would drop to 12 turns. But, then we won't have as many workers to develop those hills, and there's still no guarantee we'd get to Philosophy first. And even if we don't get to Philosophy first, we'll probably still get the Museum of Mausollos, in which case during our GA, mined hills will gives us 3 shields a piece. So, I vote we stick with putting out at least two more workers, since to fully develop a hill requires 12 worker turns for us... which gives us rather good production once we become a Monarchy (and we'll want it all), or at least better despotic GA production.

    Don't worry about developing the BG, until we have all hills mined. Do you see why?

    Given that we pull off the Monarchy (Republic would work better, of course) slingshot, and have more than 200 shields in the box, the trick lies in keeping 002 on the Palace pre-build until 1 turn before we finish Anarchy. Then we swap the pre-build to the Museum of Mausollos, and we have our GA as soon as we emerge from Anarchy. Also, we can have the 20k city revolt every other turn so that it doesn't lose as much food as if we had it revolt every turn, and civil disorder doesn't occur this way, so we won't lose the temple.
     
  19. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Ah, you're looking ahead to the GA, where the hills for 002 will be more valuable than a BG for 001 will be.
     
  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    No, it's the amount of food needed and the tiles which yield the most production. Even with the setup for maximum production, we won't have any use for that BG as mined until we have Engineering.
     

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