C3C - SID - Rise of Carthage - as guided by Spoonwood

[Elephantium]

Use forest again at size 8


001 and 003 - priority: settlers (but try not to waste shields)

Pre-turn: Look around and note the lay of the land.
003 worker > settler

T0 2150 BC: belatedly change 001 to riverside grass instead of the game; we don't need the shields for these couple of turns because of the chop

T1 2110 BC: start roading the incense. Switch 002 to the unmined BG from a riverside mine, according to Spoonwood's blueprint. 003 takes that tile and goes from content to happy
001 Curragh > Settler

T2 2070 BC: Start roading the mined BG. Shuffle tile assignments a bit.
Japan completes Colossus.

T3 2030 BC: Switch 001 back to the Game and 002 off the forest (size 7, 20 food in the bin, +5fpt for growth in 4 vs. 5).
Unfortunately, 003 loses its commerce and goes back to Content from Happy. We all have to make sacrifices

T4 1990 BC: Zzz...
Worker completes the Incense Road!

T5 1950 BC: Lux slider to 30%. Move the Incense roader to the Game forest.
Lose first suicide curragh W of the small island to our W.

T6 1910 BC: Zzz...
Aztecs complete the Pyramids.

I'm like a curse on this SG!

 

[creamcheese]

That is interesting, within a turn in the two different games and the same civ both times. Maybe we need to switch to someone besides aztecs?

 

[AnthonyIII]

Hmm... Yes, maybe you're right creamcheese. I really liked our island on this one, so this was a shame. Since when did Monty get into culture anyways? Oh well. What do we do?

 

[Spoonwood]

I anticipated that might happen (I don't know how many Sid games I've ditched, because of losing the Pyramids/Oracle race... even without the Aztecs really). The Aztecs might not come as the better choice since I think Agricultural tribes tend to research Masonry... maybe Arabia would work better. I know I've played with them in before, as I've done this on a Large Sid map twice, and basically they come as one of the only 6 AIs that aren't scientific, industrious, commercial, or seafaring (the others are Zulu, the Mongols, Arabia, the Celts, and Japan). That said, I played out a backup game earlier tonight just enough to make sure we could finish one of them... so tell me what you guys think of this:

 

[AnthonyIII]

I like this one. Same oppositions? We two luxes on our island and looks like 002 will get to 27 shields pre-Shake's, which is good. I also like the size of our island. I see you've met Monty and the Mongols and we can trade Writing to the Mongols and CB to Monty. Looks like a winner to me!

EDIT: BTW, did you write down your steps on this one? Would be interesting to see how you've played it.

 

[Spoonwood]

Same opponents. I didn't write any steps down. I know I added in a worker at one point. I wouldn't make either of those trades at this point. Don't forget corruption in 002, so I don't think it's quite 27 shields.

 

[creamcheese]

Well, I'm okay with playing this save. It does seem like it is just luck whether or not they go for the Pyramids too soon. This start is not significantly different/better than the others, and you managed to get it. I am curious why you didn't plant 003 southwest one square. You'd still get the BG for 002 and there would be less overlap I think.

What will the order be? Should I go next or what?

 

[Spoonwood]

Well, I'm okay with playing this save. It does seem like it is just luck whether or not they go for the Pyramids too soon. This start is not significantly different/better than the others, and you managed to get it. I am curious why you didn't plant 003 southwest one square. You'd still get the BG for 002 and there would be less overlap I think.

What will the order be? Should I go next or what?

If I understand what you mean correctly, I think doing such would have put 002 more inland. Generally speaking, in a research game, I'll try and jam cities into the coast as much as possible so that later on they have more tiles for use for research.

This map still might come as a little tough, with the Aztecs already having Writing. I have a few maps with Arabia. I think this decreases the probability of someone putting in the Pyramids, and increases the probability of someone knowing Polytheism the turn you learn Philosophy for the Monarchy slingshot...

This map might work better.

0-4000 BC move worker to cow. Move settler to 1 spot.

1-3950 BC plant 001. Start research on Writing. Irrigate cow. Use forest for 1 turn.

2-3900 BC swap from forest to grassland cow.

3-3850 BC zzz.

4-3800 BC road cow.

5-3750 BC zzz.

6-3700 BC Move worker to forest to chop it for the faster settler (I chopped the wrong spot), we do have enough forests around for this.

7-3650 BC Swap tiles, raise luxuries and start chopping.

8-3600 BC zzz

9-3550 BC zzz

10-3500 BC Chop completes. Worker roads.

11-3450 BC Culture expands.

12-3400 BC Settler out.

13-3350 BC worker lands on grassland cow. Start on Pyramids/Oracle.

14-3300 BC Mine cow.

15-3250 BC zzz

16-3200 BC zzz

17-3150 BC zzz

18-3100 BC 001 curragh-worker.

19-3050 BC not much.

20-3000 BC not much.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Alright -take it away, creamcheese!

 

[creamcheese]

Which save are we going with?

 

[Elephantium]

The 3000 BC one, I'd say

 

[Spoonwood]

I'd prefer the 3000 BC one also.

 

[creamcheese]

Okay got it. I'll try to get it done tonight before all the Christmas stuff starts tomorrow.

 

[creamcheese]

Not as quick as the last game, we'll see.

Turn Log:

Spoiler :

Turn 0, 3000BC; Lower both sliders one notch for the same effect. +7gpt. Hit enter.

IBT; 001 gorws.

Turn 1, 2950BC; MM001 for gold. Worker mines BG. See border to the west on a new island.

IBT; 001 worker-->warrior. 002 grows.

Turn 2, 2900BC; Worker across river. Meet Mongols, they don't have our techs, but they have BW, Warrior code, and pottery. Lux to 30%.

IBT; mongols building collossus.

Turn 3, 2850BC; Scouting.

IBT; zzz

Turn 4, 2800BC; Worker mines, mine finishes, other worker roads.

IBT; zzz

Turn 5, 2750BC; Worker roads, road finishes. Other worker to grassland. MM 001 for gold.

IBT; 001 warrior--Warrior (growing slowly). 002 grows.

Turn 6, 2710BC; MM 001 for shields. MM 002 for 5 food. Worker to grassland and mines. Warrior to 002. Lux to 20%.

IBT; zzz

Turn 7, 2670BC; scouting.

IBT; mine finishes.

Turn 8, 2630BC; workers to grassland. Find new island near Mongol one.

IBT; zzz

Turn 9, 2590BC; Workers mine. MM 001 for gold.

IBT; 001 warrior-->settler. 002 grows.

Turn 10, 2550BC; MM 001 for shields. MM 002 for 5 food. Warrior to 002 for MP. Scouting.

Next player should probably go with forest chops. I didn't check, but we might be able to afford pottery from the Mongols. Chop for a granary since 001 grows so slow. Also irrigating that game would help, but I'm not sure we have the worker turns for that.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Got it. Will do as you say creamcheese, Spoonwood and Elephantium if you have some more advise on what to do, just tell me. No trades with the Mongols, then? Will probably play tomorrow or very late tonight, as it is indeed christmas eve. Merry christmas to all of you!

 

[Spoonwood]

I'd have 002 swap from the grassland to one of the forests now. This way 001 can still have 2 fpt. We definitely want a settler to grab that BG and that other cow soon, but since 001 can't grow all that fast, I think it better to have it put out a worker, and 001 uses the grassland where the workers mine right now until the worker comes out. 001 needs food more than shields. The third worker goes to the 2 spot from 001 and chops it. Then it roads that spot. Then it goes and chops the game.

The other two workers after mining and roading split up. One goes to the hill across the river, another to the BG across the river. Both road. Then they look at developing the cow and the BG which we'll pick both up via the next city (do you see where to place the city yet AnthonyIII?). I wouldn't stack the workers unless on a roaded square, and try not to lose turns in movement (note I know I made slight error or two in my turns in this game, but it shouldn't come as a big deal). The worker who roads the hill can first drop onto the regular grassland and road it even, and then develop the cow, unless we maybe already have the settler over there, in which case mining the BG faster might work better. 002 can grow in 5 turns, then use the spot where the mines will complete now, then grow in another 5 turns, and finally use both of its possible forests at size 7, until we have the new BGs and cows mined.

Obtaining Pottery via cash isn't a bad idea, but I'd try and hold off until we get at least some of the other contacts. Picking up Ceremonial Burial via lump sums also can work well with more than one contact. If you get another contact AnthonyIII ring up both the Mongols and the other contact and see what you can get from them both for Alphabet (but don't agree to any trades, just see what the trade advisor tells you). Do this every turn. If, say, they'll agree to giving you Warrior Code, The Wheel, and Bronze Working (maybe it's Ceremonial Burial) on one turn, but the deal becomes "close" the next, THEN consult us to see (it's probably good, but just so we agree on things) if we like the trade and no deals before that. No trades before then, unless the timing with the completion of the Oracle works out well (see below). We will get the Great Library, so there's no real need to pick up techs early, other than Ceremonial Burial which we can almost surely get via a lump sum once we have multiple contacts.

As another tip, which might apply more to Elephantium's turn, or mine, or CreamCheese's I'm not sure... every line of the Pyramids build consists of 40 shields. So, if you have 7 lines full, you have 280 shields in the box. So, if we manage a contact which has Mysticism, if the AIs aren't getting close to learning Alphabet/Writing, we don't trade for Mysticism until the box has a little more than 7 lines in it. Also, since we have so few cities at this point, we can use the Palace for this. In other words, we just see how many turns would come as left were we to swap our build to the Palace. Up to 13 cities on a standard map, the Palace costs 300 shields, the same as the Oracle.

If we can put the Oracle in, 001 can get a granary. If not, it'll have one from the Pyramids. So, I wouldn't worry about that yet. We want that next settler earlier for 002 to develop more, and the granary doesn't quite pay off until you've put out multiple settlers and workers.

In summary, 1. swap 001 to a worker, which goes and chops at the 2 spot from 001, and after roading, then chops the game (maybe another curragh, and then the settler? I don't know exactly). 2. After mining and roading, split up the workers, and have them look north "in good time" (i. e. try not to waste turns in movement, and only do so if it results in 002 getting more in towards the first wonder). 3. 002 uses forest, then regular mined grassland at size 6, then both forests at size 7.

Sorry if that got long-winded.

Enjoy the Airing of Grievances and the Feats of Strength this year at Festivus!

 

[AnthonyIII]

Spoonwood, it didn't get long-winded at all, I'm glad you're so detailed. I was gonna play now, but when I read your post it doesn't match my save. 001 is already using the forest/game, and no workers are currently mining. We have one worker and one warrior in this save. Have I got the wrong save?

As for the next city, I would guess you want to place it on the regular grassland between the wheat and the cow next to the hills of 001. Correct?

Here's a pic of how my save looks.

 

[Elephantium]

That's the wrong save. I just lost that game for us

 

[Spoonwood]

See post 94 by creamcheese. And it's not your fault Elephantium... getting one of the Pyramids/Oracle at this level takes the right map.

 

[AnthonyIII]

My bad. Playing soon.