C4C: Ancient Mediterranean MOD
- Thread starter Luckystrike77
- Start date
!
Androrc the Orc
Emperor
What about founding fathers? We could include:
Aristotle
Homer
Pitagoras (although his existence is disputed)
Plato
Ptah-hotep; Egyptian sage (if the original colonization had Jakob Fugger, who served the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian of Austria, why can't we have an Egyptian founding father even if Egypt isn't depicted? Besides, it adds to the flavor of the game, without escaping from it's scope)
Socrates
and, if we extend into the roman era:
Marcus Porcius Cato (the Elder); besides advocating the destruction of carthage, he also wrote De Agri Cultura, an agricultural manual, detailing how to run a farm, etc. Written by him is also Origines, a depiction of the history of Rome
Marcus Terentius Varro; wrote an agricultural manual of name Rerum Rusticarum Libri III, (of course, probably there were the Libri I and II, but this is the one that reached us) also wrote De Lingua Latina. He studied philosophy in Athens and in politics he reached the position of praetor. Although he was a supporter of Pompey, Caesar put the project of Rome's future library under his care.
Lucius Moderatus Columella; wrote another agricultural manual, De Re Rustica. Served as military tribune in a legion deployed in Syria. Born in Gades, Baetica.
Virgil; wrote the Eneid
Aristotle
Homer
Pitagoras (although his existence is disputed)
Plato
Ptah-hotep; Egyptian sage (if the original colonization had Jakob Fugger, who served the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian of Austria, why can't we have an Egyptian founding father even if Egypt isn't depicted? Besides, it adds to the flavor of the game, without escaping from it's scope)
Socrates
and, if we extend into the roman era:
Marcus Porcius Cato (the Elder); besides advocating the destruction of carthage, he also wrote De Agri Cultura, an agricultural manual, detailing how to run a farm, etc. Written by him is also Origines, a depiction of the history of Rome
Marcus Terentius Varro; wrote an agricultural manual of name Rerum Rusticarum Libri III, (of course, probably there were the Libri I and II, but this is the one that reached us) also wrote De Lingua Latina. He studied philosophy in Athens and in politics he reached the position of praetor. Although he was a supporter of Pompey, Caesar put the project of Rome's future library under his care.
Lucius Moderatus Columella; wrote another agricultural manual, De Re Rustica. Served as military tribune in a legion deployed in Syria. Born in Gades, Baetica.
Virgil; wrote the Eneid
GoodGame
Red, White, & Blue, baby!
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2004
- Messages
- 13,725
If you extend it to the empire, then the politics would be kind of interesting,
e.g.:
Tiberus and Gaius Gracchus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracchi
And throw in Galen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen
Greeks: Hero of Alexandria, Herodotus, Thucydides, Aristophanes, Solon, and Lycurgus.
e.g.:
Tiberus and Gaius Gracchus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracchi
And throw in Galen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen
Greeks: Hero of Alexandria, Herodotus, Thucydides, Aristophanes, Solon, and Lycurgus.
Androrc the Orc
Emperor
How could I forget the Gracchus brothers! Another possible founding father is the also tribune Marcus Livius Drusus (he advocated for the other Italic peoples to be given citizenship, was assassinated, and consequently the non-Roman italians rose in revolt).
Androrc the Orc
Emperor
Founding fathers are just too interesting in the game to be discarded. Besides, replacing them with technology would make the game feel a lot more like civ and a lot less like colonization.
Darkhour
Warlord
meh get rid of the founding fathers. doesn't do much for myself personally and I like the idea of technologies, gods, visionaries.. they're sort of labels anyway so you could use a mixture..
Ekmek
on steam: ekmek_e
yeah i liked the idea that it was based on "the favor of the gods" so you get Poseidon you get +1 movement etc. We'd probably have to add egyptian gods or use roman and greek gods (i kno they are the same) unless someone has a good list of phoenician gods or the greek god list is long enough for the FFs
GoodGame
Red, White, & Blue, baby!
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2004
- Messages
- 13,725
I don't think it needs to be either/or regarding techs and founding fathers. I'd think adding one more tab, "Research" and light bulbs would be child's play. The goal points would simply be techs rather than people. Curious though if Civ4Col would support a civ4 tech tree on one of the tabs. Is branching permitted, or perhaps simpler, can pre-reqs be established? E.g. must grab a particular FF to grab the next FF , with regards to the research tab (and of course techs replacing the FFs).
Stacmon
Explorer
The issue I see that comes up with a "Favour of the Gods" system is that it takes what could be a somewhat historical game (like Colonization in its current setting) and turns it into a fantasy scenario. I'm not sure about the others here, but that's the kind of thing that would turn me off to the mod. I prefer to keep things as accurate as possible.
What do people think of packaging this in a different way. I agree that we probably have too few founding fathers from non-Greek civs, so what about using the current founding fathers framework to allow the colonies to specialize.
Rather than function the way technologies would (recall, that only one civilization can use each founding father), this could help us customize and distinguish between civs (especially if we have more than one from each cultural group, ie: greeks). A player could decide to focus his colonies/new civilization in certain areas, such as trade (ie: earning bonuses like increasing the price of goods sold to the home country), maritime power (ie: increased movement speed of ships, greater withdrawal chance from combat), land power, production of specific goods, etc. Alternatively, they could pick "specializations" (we'd come up with a much better word) from a variety of areas if they wanted to diversify somewhat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, one avenue that we may want to consider is to set the mod in a time period that allows us to maximize the number of playable civilizations.
I recall a Civ3 scenario (from one of the expansion packs) set in the Mediterranean which had the Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans and Persians all as playable civilizations. Whatever approach we take, I think we have to think long and hard about practical ways that we can increase the number of playable civs to avoid the mod from getting stale too quickly.
What do people think of packaging this in a different way. I agree that we probably have too few founding fathers from non-Greek civs, so what about using the current founding fathers framework to allow the colonies to specialize.
Rather than function the way technologies would (recall, that only one civilization can use each founding father), this could help us customize and distinguish between civs (especially if we have more than one from each cultural group, ie: greeks). A player could decide to focus his colonies/new civilization in certain areas, such as trade (ie: earning bonuses like increasing the price of goods sold to the home country), maritime power (ie: increased movement speed of ships, greater withdrawal chance from combat), land power, production of specific goods, etc. Alternatively, they could pick "specializations" (we'd come up with a much better word) from a variety of areas if they wanted to diversify somewhat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, one avenue that we may want to consider is to set the mod in a time period that allows us to maximize the number of playable civilizations.
I recall a Civ3 scenario (from one of the expansion packs) set in the Mediterranean which had the Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans and Persians all as playable civilizations. Whatever approach we take, I think we have to think long and hard about practical ways that we can increase the number of playable civs to avoid the mod from getting stale too quickly.
AlazkanAssassin
Engineer
A way to overcome the problem of only one player being able to get each founding father / technology is you could have two versions of each tech (or of just the most important ones), one for the person who invents the tech, and one(unresearchable directly) that would be scripted to be given to everyone else whenever someone gets the main one. These would be for things like "Iron Working". Everyone can now mine and work iron into weapons, but the Inventor gets +25% iron production, a free specialist, and the Iron weapons forge building for free.
Androrc the Orc
Emperor
We can have enough non-greco-roman founding fathers. It just happens that it needs research, specially since there are a lot less people knowledgeable about them than about either greek or roman ones. But it's not like there isn't material out there for us grabbing and putting in the mod.
Technology, if it doesn't exclude the founding fathers, is a nice option; although we have to be careful as to not make the game too "civy".
Technology, if it doesn't exclude the founding fathers, is a nice option; although we have to be careful as to not make the game too "civy".
Stacmon
Explorer
That's an important point. We simply need people with the drive to do it.
I hope we can get a fair balance between Greek, Phoenician and other founding fathers.
Androrc the Orc
Emperor
Exactly Stacmon.
By the way, here is a map of Phoenician and Greek colonies:
Keep in mind that this map is from 1926, and scientific discoveries may have brought change to our knowledge of the location of their colonies.
By the way, here is a map of Phoenician and Greek colonies:
Keep in mind that this map is from 1926, and scientific discoveries may have brought change to our knowledge of the location of their colonies.
Stacmon
Explorer
I've seen a similar map of the early Islamic Caliphate and it was very useful (probably the same source).
It looks like a great resource for city (colony) names.
It looks like a great resource for city (colony) names.
Androrc the Orc
Emperor
The source if the Perry-Castañeda Library online collection; this is part of the Historical Atlas by William R. Shepherd and if anyone is interested, there are more maps of that atlas in this link: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/history_shepherd_1923.html
Stacmon
Explorer
Great, thanks for the link 
!
!
Darkhour
Warlord
well the FF are just labels.. they're just a pic and text over some advantages and dont really match to the historical timeline of Anc. Med.
Techs and or gods etc. match IMO better in this circumstance.. As far as gods and a fantasy game, they were historical.. not fantasy..
Techs and or gods etc. match IMO better in this circumstance.. As far as gods and a fantasy game, they were historical.. not fantasy..
Stacmon
Explorer
Yes, it's true that people believed that those gods existed, but of course that's not the same as saying they actually have any power.
Using gods would be tricky in that if you assign a founding father like benefit called "Poseidon's Favour," which would increase ships movement speed, it's important that this was recognized as symbolism for a civilization specializing in a given area (in this case, sea travel). If it was envisioned such that the exploration points that a player gathered made the god Poseidon want to support the civilization with this added ability, then that in my opinion would turn the game into fantasy. This is because unless you believe the Greek gods were in fact real gods with real powers, you would be adding an element that is not based in historical fact.
Androrc the Orc
Emperor
Well, but they are labels that evoke a certain "feel" in people's minds and that matters quite a lot. Besides, the FFs match very well to the ancient world, in which we had individual personalities be much more important than in the modern era.
