C4C: Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[Stacmon]

Great, thanks for the link !

 

[Darkhour]

well the FF are just labels.. they're just a pic and text over some advantages and dont really match to the historical timeline of Anc. Med.

Techs and or gods etc. match IMO better in this circumstance.. As far as gods and a fantasy game, they were historical.. not fantasy..

 

[Stacmon]

As far as gods and a fantasy game, they were historical.. not fantasy..

Yes, it's true that people believed that those gods existed, but of course that's not the same as saying they actually have any power.

Using gods would be tricky in that if you assign a founding father like benefit called "Poseidon's Favour," which would increase ships movement speed, it's important that this was recognized as symbolism for a civilization specializing in a given area (in this case, sea travel). If it was envisioned such that the exploration points that a player gathered made the god Poseidon want to support the civilization with this added ability, then that in my opinion would turn the game into fantasy. This is because unless you believe the Greek gods were in fact real gods with real powers, you would be adding an element that is not based in historical fact.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

well the FF are just labels.. they're just a pic and text over some advantages and dont really match to the historical timeline of Anc. Med.

Techs and or gods etc. match IMO better in this circumstance.. As far as gods and a fantasy game, they were historical.. not fantasy..

Well, but they are labels that evoke a certain "feel" in people's minds and that matters quite a lot. Besides, the FFs match very well to the ancient world, in which we had individual personalities be much more important than in the modern era.

 

[Ekmek]

Using gods would be tricky in that if you assign a founding father like benefit called "Poseidon's Favour," which would increase ships movement speed, it's important that this was recognized as symbolism for a civilization specializing in a given area (in this case, sea travel).

thats the way i saw it, not the fantasy way of powers. If anything the way FF is handled now with +1 sea mvement its acts like favor, one person alone cant make all ships better. I figured instead of text like" X joins your causes" we'd have" It appears we have poseidon's blessings" or "the priests say Aphrodite looks favourably upon or colonies" and the like.

 

[thamis]

Also, if people that Poseidon loves them, they might be more daring in their seamanship, thus sailing faster. Those who believe that Mars loves them fight more recklessly and thus win, etc... I think the gods are good, as they reflect the mindset of the period.

We could take Greek and Phoenician/Mesopotamian gods. I can make a list.

 

[Darkhour]

Yes, it's true that people believed that those gods existed, but of course that's not the same as saying they actually have any power.

Using gods would be tricky in that if you assign a founding father like benefit called "Poseidon's Favour," which would increase ships movement speed, it's important that this was recognized as symbolism for a civilization specializing in a given area (in this case, sea travel). If it was envisioned such that the exploration points that a player gathered made the god Poseidon want to support the civilization with this added ability, then that in my opinion would turn the game into fantasy. This is because unless you believe the Greek gods were in fact real gods with real powers, you would be adding an element that is not based in historical fact.

I think you underestimate the impact of religion to ones psyche. God(s) and religion do have power, even if it's not in a direct way. If people believe, they can and will do great things towards their aims and goals envisioned. This is true about most things in life, not just religion. If religion and gods are used as a basis, civilisations can be seen, as thamis and ekmek mentioned above, as sea folk (Poseidon) etc.. farming folk, warrior folk and given bonuses towards these goals..

Androrc, labels obviously matter otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion but in the grand scale of the game concerning the FF screen, they are just labels, pics and bonuses. I just believe that gods/techs lebels would better illustrate the 'feel' of the timeframe better than the concept of the FF label and the numerable individual names that Col. uses.

 

[Darkhour]

the other thing I like concerning the FF screen, is that your options are based off your actual actions and decisions in accruing points towards the bonuses.

If this system was ported to Civ 4 or changed within Col. to a Tech Tree, it would make for a very interesting idea IMO...

 

[Stacmon]

I think we're generally all on the same page here.

As I was saying, as long as these "Founding Fathers/gods" are symbolic, it's totally different than one of the god's actually granting men their power.

thamis offered an example of how this can be conceived of in the game:

...if people [believe] that Poseidon loves them, they might be more daring in their seamanship, thus sailing faster.

We're basically discussing semantics. I agree with others that integrating the area's mythology is a good approach and a viable alternative to the founding fathers system in CivCol. I also prefer it over the "technology" approach (as we'd get closer and closer to blurring the lines between this game and Civ4).

 

[Darkhour]

We're basically discussing semantics.

agreed..

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Androrc, labels obviously matter otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion but in the grand scale of the game concerning the FF screen, they are just labels, pics and bonuses. I just believe that gods/techs lebels would better illustrate the 'feel' of the timeframe better than the concept of the FF label and the numerable individual names that Col. uses.

That's exactly where I disagree. There is scarcely a time when individuals mattered so much as this one; we would end up just not representing at all the plethora of important men and women that lived in that era, from Plato to Titus Livius.

 

[Jet]

as long as these "Founding Fathers/gods" are symbolic, it's totally different than one of the god's actually granting men their power.

If it was the same game mechanic either way, I wouldn't consider it totally different at all.

it's important that this was recognized as symbolism for a civilization specializing in a given area ... [rather than] the god Poseidon want[ing] to support the civilization with this added ability

To me, that would not be at all important one way or the other.

It may be important to you. That's fine. My point is that it's subjective and that my perspective, for example, is different.

 

[Stacmon]

To Jet above:

Fair points .

 

[VSPavlov]

"Gods" may be tricky, because of their cultural identity. It would be rather strange for Mesopotamians to worship Zeus, or for Greek to have a Bhall's blessing...

 

[Stacmon]

That's a good point, but using that same line of thinking, isn't it also very strange when the Dutch have English, French or Spanish founding fathers in the standard game?

 

[Darkhour]

"Gods" may be tricky, because of their cultural identity. It would be rather strange for Mesopotamians to worship Zeus, or for Greek to have a Bhall's blessing...

If you do your research you'd find that view very wrong... just remember that names are language specific but are still only labels...

 

[Androrc the Orc]

That's a good point, but using that same line of thinking, isn't it also very strange when the Dutch have English, French or Spanish founding fathers in the standard game?

Not really. Some of those served many nations during their lifetime. Having the Greeks, a people not only proud of their culture, but actually quite xenophobic, worship gods of other seems strange at the very least.

 

[Stacmon]

Similar to Darkhour's point, gods and beliefs in ancient times were incorporated and assimilated by various peoples. Although the process was slow and gradual, there was some fluidity.

Regarding founding fathers working for several nations, that is true in a few cases, but not for the majority of the founding fathers we are talking about in Colonization.

I'll agree though that the gods approach is definitely more of a stretch than founding fathers!

 

[Ekmek]

Not really. Some of those served many nations during their lifetime. Having the Greeks, a people not only proud of their culture, but actually quite xenophobic, worship gods of other seems strange at the very least.

In Alexander's day it was changed to Zues-Ammon. And a lot of the stories of the greek gods came from lands outside the greek pennisula indicating they came from other cultures. Plus polytheism was easily allowed for syncretism, unlike today's monotheistic and book based religions

 

[Androrc the Orc]

In Alexander's day it was changed to Zues-Ammon. And a lot of the stories of the greek gods came from lands outside the greek pennisula indicating they came from other cultures. Plus polytheism was easily allowed for syncretism, unlike today's monotheistic and book based religions

The gods that came from other lands were only incorporated gradually, through contact with those cultures. There was nothing like the Roman syncretism in Greece. Likewise, it would make no sense at all for the Egyptians to worship Zeus or Poseidon. As for Alexander's day's example, well, that is more likely an exception (and a very rare one, while we're at it) than the rule; Alexander is known too for forcibly integrating cultures. Further, that kind of syncretism seems to happen in that era only in large land empires, not in sea empires of city-states.