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Call To Arms: CBO Weekly Civ Challenge

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Funak, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. kawyua

    kawyua Warlord

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    I'll be quite interested in strategies with city states now that statecraft has been reworked. I think its very strong for diplo victories, but it requires quite a bit of creativity. If something about this ever comes up, I'll be curious to read how they went about it. England is somewhat able, I guess. It'll probably take a lot effort to go all the way to late game to play with tenets like covert action :undecide:
     
  2. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Hey, i was not a part of this forum a year ago, but here is my suggestion. In order to test something and to find out what strategies work and what is/isn't OP (and of course to find out who is the boss) everyone should play the same map. So there should be an agreement on start settings, then someone should generate the map and post an initial autosave here. If done this way - it should be very interesting to see how people approach the game and what strategies work better.

    My suggestion is:
    1) Pangea (the most balanced map for sure. Continents may work too, but sometimes there is a lot of narrow passages that are too easy to abuse
    2) Standard or Large size, standard speed
    3) Strategic balance resources
    4) No events, no ruins - to much randomness, person who find culture instead of map in the same ruin will be 15 turns ahead
    5) No tech trading, no tech brokering, transparent diplomacy (most of people seem to use this settings, also tech trading is to easy to abuse too)
    6) Difficulty - Deity (hahaha, time to suffer!, but seriously, should be different for different players. I also think that the game should be balanced around deity because whatever is balanced on deity is balanced on lower difficulties but not the opposite)

    Also key decisions should be reported. And of course no save-load abuse, but its on everyone's conscience
     
    vyyt likes this.
  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    If you want to do your own thing, you're absolutely welcome to. The idea here was and will remain just giving a suggested civ, and the coolest write-up wins
     
  4. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Understood, no problem. But i can't really understand how to compare England on Jade monopoly and England on Sugar monopoly
     
  5. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I don't compare anything, the only contest here is the best story.
     
  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    This is highly debatable. A handful of abilities (such as Greece, India, or Byzantium) scale much, much better on higher difficulties. I'd say the game should probably be balanced around Emperor/Immortal
    Look for moments when England's bonuses came in clutch. I've played England on jungle spices before, thanks the spy I had a tech lead early on. That was a big deal in getting markets and connecting my luxury quickly.

    I think the idea is just to have a bunch of people play at once, so we can get a concentration of feedback. Use your head, if think you are winning because of a broken jade + mausoleum start, say that. or reroll. I reroll starts because they are too good far more often than because they are too bad
     
  7. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    That's actually a perfect example of what i wanted to say. If Greece performs on deity much better than other civs do - it should be nerfed. Or other civs should be buffed

    Any strategy that work on deity is viable on lower difficulties because you can do more mistakes. But many strategies that seem to be perfect on emperor do not work on deity. Imagine a person that claim that a strategy is imbalanced cause he dominates the map every time he uses it on emperor - you answer will be "up your difficulty and see how it works" right? Then imagine a person claiming that a civ is unplayable on deity because he can win deity with other civs, but not with this one - is "set lower difficulty" a right answer? I don't think so.

    If game is balanced around emperor - that means every civ is playable and has a unique strategy that works on emperor, but at the same time there can be only 3 civs that can compete on deity. On the other hand if a civ can compete on deity - it can compete on emperor for sure. So if every civ can compete on deity - every civ can compete on emperor. Some of them might be too strong on emperor, but if it happens - "set higher difficulty and see how it works".

    Thats a good point, i agree. This way we can see how a particular civ acts in different setups. Though, seeing how different people approach the same setup is also interesting, isn't it? Both in terms of balance and curiosity. For example it seems to me that you, me and ElliotS play deity, but in a very different way.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    No my response would be to nerf it, regardless of how it does on Deity.

    Deity isn't balanced. Early faith, culture and military bonuses are the most important things. Effects like Assyria's UA just aren't useful compared to India's turn 1 pantheon. You could either make all civs very similar (give everyone early faith/culture/war boosts) or bump up effects like Assyria's. But doing that will make Assyria overperform on King or Emperor (where most players play).
     
    Blue Ghost likes this.
  9. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    but in that case players could play Assyria on immortal and France on king!
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    That's my point. Back to the beginning of the discussion, people should play the challenge on whatever difficulty/ other settings they normally use. The goal is to get feedback on England's power in general (as well as sharing some stories), not England's power level on one specific map setting. If someone normally plays with ruins on continents and king, we don't learn anything from him playing on Deity.

    I'm looking forward to seeing how people chose to play Elizabeth. She is an interesting leader without obvious policy choices. How important is water? On a land heavy map can the spy carry her? We have a mystery to solve!
     
  11. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Ah, well, when i was talking about game being balances around deity - i meant mystirious "final ideal balance", not the actual challenge. I'll probably join the challenge myself if i have time
     
  12. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

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    Balance is different on different settings. There's no way around that. I don't see why deity should be privileged as a balance point. I don't buy the "because it's harder" argument. One-city challenge is also harder, and we don't balance civs around that.
     
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  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Could you please stop soaking up the thread with balance-discussions, please? I've set the rules for my 'challenge', if you hate it start your own thing or something.
     
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  14. Jakman217

    Jakman217 Chieftain

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    To get it back on track I'll add my sad story from today.
    England - Huge - Continents - Prince Difficulty - strategic Balance - standard speed.

    Queen Elizabeth started out relatively poorly. With barbarians thick in her area and no initial connection to the sea, but she was hopeful. Her closest neighbor was Siam, and though the fearsome Khan, Nobunaga, and Alexander were also on her continent, they were far away and had others to attack first.

    But as time rolled on things never got much better for her. Scouts died unfortunately fast, barbarians archers destroyed her warriors, and it was after 66 turns that it was safe enough to plant a second city. While her early spy was wonderful at helping her in her aft position on the power rankings, ultimately they could not develop her land. Even worse, she became greedy and aggressive.

    After growing oddly cozy with the Great Khan, she jointly declared war on Siam and successfully took on of his cities, things were looking up. She was rising, her spies proved ever more successful and she was pleased.

    It was during the Renaissance that the Khan called on her once again to declare war. Seeing the wealth that would follow, rather than build up, she attacked hoping to take some of his cities quickly while his army was busy with the mongols. But, fate had turned against her. After successfully taking one of Siam's cities, she started to fall into ruin. Her people revolted and peace would be completely lost to her.

    Slowly she fell back, and lost soldiers, her happiness unsustainable, her enemy more powerful than expected, and her ally less helpful than promised. She lost half her cities, including London in the war. Shortly thereafter, with nothing left to lose, she declared one final war to end it all. She faded into history just before the industrial age.

    ---

    The more mechanical telling.

    Had a rough start, with the capital next to lakes but no coast, and an oddly high barbarian presence in the area (like 4 camps within 4 tiles of each other), I figured I was in for a rough game. I went progress with the intent of going wide, but the barbarians and their archers held me back far longer than they should've. By the time the map was filling out, Siam was my neighbor and I intended to lightly conquer him. Maybe make him a vassal, but not take his capital as I wasn't going domination. However, my slow start and misstep in starting the second war crushed me under unhappiness and his military. After the second war ended, I gave up and let myself die out so I could at least see the end screen.

    The spies worked wonderfully, letting me keep up when I was behind and get some turns of friendliness with CS's when I had yet to meet another civ. Her bad start meant I never felt the full strength of her movement bonus or naval discount. She's hard starting out with if you don't get coast, and while her spy can help out, it cannot carry her far. Additionally, I felt that on occasion the extra techs were more painful as it raised my bar of what I needed to make faster then I could make it in most of my cities.

    I'll probably be giving another round with her with similar starting settings and see if I can not screw myself over as hard.

    Edit: Also, Japan was in the game and was the top dog for pretty much the entire thing, Mongolia was doing well most of the game. Siam wasn't doing so hot until my botched war, then rose to second place. Alexander never amounted to much and ended up vassalizing himself to Siam
     
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  15. Myrrdin_Emrys

    Myrrdin_Emrys Warlord

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    The Despicable Fate of the Perfidious Elizabeth !

    1) A new nightmare

    Us, peaceful and commercant people of Carthage, son of our noble queen Dido, heirs of the phoenicians came from the dark ages of nomadism to settle our first city.
    Spoiler :



    We were pleased to meet in our south hills and jungle a unit of a foreign scout (calling themselves the English) : we were not alone in this vast world. Our hearts were cheering up. But as soon as we meet, he did without authorization come into our sacred ground.
    But it was just the start of our nightmare. He did burned our farms just for few coins, capture our civilians to enslave them and make them work until exhaustion. This single scout pillaged 3 of our surrounding farms before quickly retreating in the jungle. He was uncatchable like a ghost. After several years of hunt and raising quite an army, we coul finally take him down, but at what cost ? We were calling him the "ogre of the jungle", this name itself was inspiring fear in the nights of our kids. Now he is dead, but is it really a good news ?
    We were so focused and this track we do notice only now that several scrolls of our blessed knowledge are now missing ! It seems all our efforts to be wise rather than bloodthirsty like our english neighboor is gone in another place ? Where ? Why does the fate still harming us ! What have we done to deserve such cruel threat ?

    2) How to win a war after the conclusion of this one

    People of denmark, people of Carthage, see that flourishing civilization called England to our next door ! This world can be mastered ! But why does they settle so far from their homeland called London ? Why does they come so close to us ? We are happy for them they rise up, but why do they have to settle so much leaving us nearly no space to settle ?
    It seems in their 3rd city a very beautiful lake is in sight. Elizabeth their queen is proudly smiling. The reports state her sentence : I will name this place the same than one of my glorious descendant : Victoria Lake !

    Spoiler :




    Will we have enough ressources to develop or still enough food to fill the belly of our kids ? I hope else it will escalate to war !

    Our surroundings are our worst enemies ! Large chain of mountains prevent us danish seafarer to settle. There is only one passage : through the city of York. To arms my braves !

    It is not a disaster, but this hilly region did stop our manoeuvres, and we were shot one by one. We could ask for a peace by giving just a small amount of gold despite few deaths in our side. No good result but not dramactic too ! We just will have to find another way to settle and maybe come back later enraged by this defeat we will call our next prepared warriors the berserks !

    Spoiler :




    This lost war had finally one unexpected very serious issue. The birth of a great military architect for our previous enemy ! Building a citadel next to our border this new place could take the control of our last mine of iron. How will we arm our fierce fighters without any iron ? A dark age is coming upon us.

    3) Religion and legitimacy

    Us people of Egypt and from the Zulus kingdom, in our wisdom we found the unique truth. The Memphistism and Protestantism ! We will humbly share our beliefs with this unenlighted folk of England.
    It seems they are fighting between themselves and are quite unhappy. Are they so narrow minded they can't accept any changes in their awful pagan ignorance ?

    Us, true people of England, true protector of the nation are calling to arms against this supposed and so-called Queen Elizabeth. She is not our rightful leader, not after she tried to nominate an archibishop who knows nothing about any of the religion presents in any of our cities. This Queen can't decide how to lead our personal faith, her reign must end ! While she is keep fighting the peaceful Danish let overthrow her !


    Spoiler :



    (I'm Playing with Community Patch Events Development and after building the great temple there was an event making pop 3-4 rebels in EACH city ! I was not prepared not enough troops and the little i had was in the danish territory... this event really was fun even if i think did badly hurt my development)

    Us, Stalwart danish wont lose again versus this devilish Queen. She prefers to keep the siege of our capital instead our saving her kingdom from her madness and revolt. Fortunalty for us the immediate surroundings of our capital are only hills, while the land a bit further is only plain. So there is no line of sight for their trebuchet. Any attempt they tried to set up their siege weapon right next to our city did result but their destruction even if it meant the sacrifice of our braves ! They could only harass us with their heavy skirmishers. So unefficient. But years after years our fortification start to fall apart (I could down the danish capital to half its HP) and we cant exploit our countryside and feed ours.
    We did manage to bring some reinforcement ringing the retreat of the coward english. We had not the necessary strength to follow them into their land near their citadel. After such a long siege, they are now the one hiding behind high walls !

    4) When your allie tricks you is it a betrayal ?

    Us, architects and artists from Egypt were always kind with our not so close english neighboor. In the past we had tension with the Vikings, as the english so it was a good reason to bound ourselves as friend of England. Moreover some of their cities believe in the same religion we do. We even manage to sign a both way open border treaty. We could consequently send our missionary and share our advanced culture more easily !
    We went to war against the Danish too. But like our english friend, our raids against the viking city of Ribe were not more sucessful than the english siege of their capital.

    We finally managed a breakthrough. The narrow pass between the mountains is a nightmare to send our troops, and this col is even guarded at the end by a fort ! It costed us a lot but we took it. But for such a short time ! The english did mass a lot of people close to our new taken fort. The path was blocked by their troop we could not retreat or bring reinforcements. But why should we fear ? with our allie we clearly outnumber the fool vikings !

    Spoiler :




    The vikings are trying to take back their fort launching assault after assault, but our english allie dont move an inch ! We first believed it was a missunderstanding in their line of communication, but now as unique survivor of this slaughter i'm pretty sure that it was all intended. The path still blocked, no reinforcement of our own country were able to come as we could not escape too ... I even believed the English were suddenly allied to the danish !
    But their plan was even more devilish ! As soon as the fortress was retaken by the vikings, the english troop started to move again and in a lightning of violence and blood this fortress was theirs. It seemed they were jsut coveting this land for themselves despite our sacrifice to take it. Never trust a greedy allie ! ( I play with fortress border so to take over the captured land by egypt without messing my relation with him, i did let Harald take the fortress back by blocking egyptian movement and then took the land for myself)

    The blessed pass for the danish was now their nightmare. Their defensive fort was now blocking any of their attempt to sabotage the set up trebuchet. Rock after rock even if it took a very long time, those single trebuchets were able to crack up the viking walls and take that beautiful city of Ribes. A lot of strategic ressources. Iron for our swords, horses for our knights. Full of abundance, wheat, sheeps, lakes even a natural wonder. This city would have been a jewel for the Egyptian kingdom if only we could have crossed those moutains ...

    Spoiler :






    To be continued

    (dont hesitate to tell me what u are thinking about guys !)
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
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  16. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Yeah not just 3 rebels per city but also 3 turns anarchy, it destroyed pretty much all my improvements and long me about 8 turns worth of yields from plundering. I reported the thing being slightly out of whack in the DPED thread.


    Nice write-up, not something I'd want to see every day but it was a nice change.


    As for my game, it went kinda so-so so far. I started on the inner sear of a crescent shaped pangaea, giving me as little actual ocean-tiles as possible. I went for tradition, figuring trying to mass expand early on with a civ with absolutely no early-game bonuses would be suicide, then I ended up settling 6 cities anyways because of how my neighbors settled somewhat close to me while still leaving room between the cities. The land I settled was pretty lacking in all forms of resources, had like 1/3 sea-tiles and on average 0.5 fish per city. Got a copper monopoly, which would have been excellent, but I did not have enough food to actually work the copper-mines, leaving my cities not growing and no producing. This led to a situation where my late medieval era army consisted of 1 archer 2 swordsmen and 1 spearman (also had 2 or 3 ships, but I had to sell them off to raise some gold and avoid having to pick that 3barb per city event during a really bad situation). Needless to say I was just sitting there waiting to get conquered, but the conquest never really happened, all my neighbors just started extorting me instead.
    Eventually Fealty into industry helped me catch up on infrastructure somehow, but now I've suffered past my unique unit and I'm not exactly sure how I'm supposed to turn this around.
     
  17. Jakman217

    Jakman217 Chieftain

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    My current game is currently in bad shape because I ended up on an island chain by myself, so now around turn 250 I'm just trying to dig my way out of the death spiral of unhappiness. I can neither build fast enough to overcome it, nor have the tech to actually overtake it.

    Edit: Finished this game and ended up never seeing above -20 happiness, that's how far down I was. Shaka won with a Science victory after flung forward about 2 eras.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    "Though small in number...your people would come dominate the world stage"

    The nation of England came to existence on a peninsula, covered by a mix of open grassland and dense jungle. The land was rich with copper, and scattered by remains of ancient nations. A friendship was quickly made with Vancouver, a nation which mysteriously already had elections to be manipulated by Agent Scarlet. Scarlet was later reassigned to Vienna, and later Thebes, where she stole valuable secrets from our soon to be enemies. England believed in the ideas of progress and equality, and so these discoveries led to great periods of cultural and government reforms.

    Spoiler Year 1960 BC :
    1.jpg

    2,000 years into history, the cadence that would define England was already visible. Despite being outnumbered, we were already the workshop of the world. It was at this point that Elizabeth felt the need to expand our empire, for the glory of the earth mother. Quickly settlers were produced and sent to all areas of the continent, with 2 being placed directly in front of the Austrian empire. Gold from around the empire was gathered to aid these new cities in building shrines, commemorating the powerful earth mother. This led to a dark period for the empire, as disconnection with the great city of London caused widespread unhappiness. However, it was not for the nothing, as the world's first great prophet came to be born in London. A council of elders was formed, to see over the expansion of the faith. England committed to its principle of small, but elite citizens, choosing to pursue mastery of a all specialties.

    Later another prophet would be born, and the progressive nation dedicated to a peaceful spreading of its religion, and to diligent production. The Parthenon and Oracle were built in London, its engineers were proud to declare that they finished before Vienna, a city of more than double London's population. After completion of the Oracle, a great debate occurred. The writers of Oxford, London and Hastings all advocated investing in arts as a way to move England forward. Another faction, led by London's scrivener's and emissaries from various allied city states, advocated statecraft. Ultimately the largest delegation, with members from all cities, was victorious and Elizabeth pursued a path of Fealty.

    Spoiler 375 BC :

    2.jpg 3.jpg

    100 turns in, England remains small in population but dominating in all other categories. Our military is small, but we are confident we could build an army if the need arises.


    The acutal gameplay version
    -Continents, 8 civs, Deity, standard speed. Tech trading turned off, default used for all other settings
    -Good start with several ruins. Made a food friend and used my spy to rig the election twice, before discovering Austria's capital and starting the tech stealing. Rushed statue of zeus so the forge would boost my copper monopoly.
    -Took Earth Mother because I was working mines and its an amazing pantheon. Only 3 civs on my continent
    -Took progress because I can get culture for stealing techs, which I plan to do a lot of. The 10:c5food:/10:c5culture: for buildings was keep to this strategy.
    -Stayed on 1 city until my 3rd policy (2:c5production:/2:c5gold: per city), then expanded 3 more (enough to get a monopoly on copper), all of which went monument first
    -After getting the 4th policy (the 10:c5food:/10:c5culture: for buildings) I went extremely wide, settling a total of 11 cities, shrine first in all. I was paranoid of missing religion and I didn't expect either neighbor to found. Austria took god of craftsmen but took a very long time to get either trade or construction (I know because spy). Egypt only build 3 cities. This is where playing England was key, any other civ would have fallen so far behind in science after expanding like this, but my spy kept me up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
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  19. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I keep playing England, because they are so tough for me to do well with. The hardest parts to transcend tend to be poor starts combined with the enmity that spying brings. It's hard to thrive under adverse circumstances -- especially when someone successful hates you.

    In my current game (Emperor, standard, continents, RA's, no tech trading), I wound up on a hilly, forested coast in the center of a six-civ continent. I went with Tradition and God of the Expanse, knocking off 3 straight settlers once I hit size 4. This has given me the first or second religion the last 4 games I've played, and it did it again. I chose Elders plus churches, because I had a good chance to spread my beliefs.

    Building those three cities where I wanted to was hard, due to the overcrowding. Combined with a need for early workers, it led to three early wars (two concurrent) involving only my upgraded scout. This netted me four workers, and deprived Siam of a prime building site, which I soon took. I've become very aggressive about "worker wars," especially when going Tradition; when playing with England, the big risk is that even more people will hate you. In this case, all three hate me to this day.

    It led to a later war against Germany and Indonesia, where I was severely pillaged, but hung on with freshly minted composite bowmen and two key, quickly built castles. The downside? London is sealed in by Indonesia and a German island, I still have only four cities, and by the time the WC formed, I had only one ship: a caravel I used to defend London from inside against the German/Indonesian fleets. I went with Artistry because I wasn't big enough to benefit from Fealty (although Germany and Indonesia have adopted my religion), so my culture and science are right near the top.

    The WC revealed that China shared the other continent with... Venice. So yes, China is a potential runaway, the biggest in everythign, but somehow not pulling away in science. Venice is their vassal, and Germany/Indonesia and Austria/Siam are also paired up, leaving me and Poland as the two solos in the game. I can't even think about taking on China, though, because first I have to break out of London harbor. Once I hit Navigation, I built 7 SOTL's (my first ships other than the lone caravel -- my latest naval effort ever).

    On t232, I'm ready to break out.

    Great write-up, Crazy G. But I'm quoting your unusual approach, just because it deserves extra consideration. I have never dared to go for a late-blooming religious effort. After reding the above, I may just suck it up and try it one time.
     
  20. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Upon further reflection... why did you take Progress then potentially hamstring your expansion by waiting so long to build settlers?
     

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