Calling some experts - advice for Prince+

to ifinnem...sorry took so long to get back, i couldnt find this thread while away on business...thanks for the advice....some questions for you though....when you say whipping, whats that? VOCUM SINE RATIO? how can you store hammers? MC/P gambit? SE economy? What ive taken to doing is saving...ALOT..and then going back and acting differnetly...example: Persia (ass-kickers who im friends with) offers defensive pact, which i decline....montezum declares war and whoops me...i go back a saved game, accept the pact, 'Zuma declares war, and persia whoops him hard (although he stole some of my cities, let me do the work then went in for the kill)......saving and resaving...is this considered "bad etiquette"? Also...since im warlike, thinkin of switchin back to mongols.....could use experience, i really like ghandi though......
 
hey...for the backstabbers, how can i change to their religion if they dont send a friggin missionary or ask me to convert???
 
also...the score of every leader..what exactly is that signify? I was voted "most cultural out of all 8 civ's" yet i was dead last in scores....one thing i tend to ignore in cities (maybe i shouldnt) is specialists...what to do....as for prince, i like gettin as many wonders asap, cuz inevtiably the AI;s race ahead w tech research, and i dont get a chance to build...so pyramids, stonehenge, parthenon, et al....i try to build ASAFP
 
to ifinnem...sorry took so long to get back, i couldnt find this thread while away on business...thanks for the advice....some questions for you though....
Dude you weren't kidding "some questions";) . My rapid fire response below. Let me know if you want more detail - hopefully other will weigh in too

Whipping = use of slavery civic. Ie sacrifce population for production. "Vocum sine ratio" guide on it - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193659 This guide should explain storing hammers - essentially you store the overflow in items in your build queue that have 100%+ of the required hammers but have not been put at the top of the queue to actually complete yet

MC/P gambit is described well in ALC game 7 and Sisiutil's intermediate tactics article - see the war academy. In short it involves building the Oracle to get Metal Casting (MC) then using a forge + end specialist to get a GE to build the Pyramids (P) = MC/P

You say you don't use specialists much - I'm just getting better at it myself. They can be used as an alternative approach to running your economy (SE = specialist economy) and there are many forums on this topic just search. The reason they are powerful is that they allow ou to convert food into either gold, production or science and in addition generate GP points for getting many more great people than you would with a cottage economy and minimal specialists.

Saving and going back is a great learning technique - I guess for the purposes of victories and scores it would not be considered pure.

The overall score can be misleading - you can fall rapidly with a war you are not prepared for (or similarly climb rapidly) It does make sense to keep an eye on the score and more importantly the components that make it up - tech, population, army size, production capacity etc. Power is a key metric that a lot of players use but I'm still understanding exactly how to interpret it myself

The "X of 8 civs" posts are simply periodic lists of what is reflected in the charts (F9) all the time (e.g. you could have selected the "culture" chart at anytime. The only thing about these lists is that they include civs you have not had contact with in the ranking as "unknown" where as on the info screen they do not show up at all

Beware of "wonderlust" and focus your valuable resources only on those wonders that are valuable, e.g.
Oracle, Pyramids, Statue of Liberty, Great Library to name a few of the best.
 
Ifinemm...

thanks....cant help wunderlust, its what keeps me "runnin with the pack" in the beginning. After the AI's do their pull-ahead with tech research, they build them and im screwed...i still dont get how i can be "most cultured and most wealthy" civ of the world and still be dead last in that score...This last game I played, man....I was just rollin out cannons, and the french had tanks (NOT artillery, TANKS)....theres just no competition with that....Which leader most suits a warlike, tech-obsessed guy? For civics, i think monarchy/theocracy best suits that....with of course "whipping"..lol sorry dude, you guys make me feel old (im 29) cuz im not hip to the lingo!
 
by the way...(bear with me please) whats ALC? and never, EVER say "metric"!!!! (hehe im an engineer, CONSTANTLY being asked "did you update the metric?")...GRRRRRR
 
Rushing for the early wonders because the AI out tech you and beat you to the later ones is holding you back. I'm not saying building early wonders is bad. I often do it. But if the problem is falling behind in tech, you should learn how to build an economy, and try skipping the wonders. The problem could be not really knowing how to run an economy, it could be not knowing how to quickly develop in the beginning, not expanding enough, or expanding too much, or even just taking bad tech paths. Maybe post a sample walk through of what you typically do in the beginning of a game, including build order, teching order, what you do with your workers etc.
 
Xan - Thanks.....basically what i do is get first city, ten research all worker need techs i need, and build one worker, then 1 settler for next city..then barracks and archers as needed.....i try to have 3 -4 cities in the early stages, then build wonders if possible, but just what i can honestly (libraries, granaries, etc...) as for workers, i try to divvy up farms and cottages, and mine the hills.....always connect cities w oads, and use slavery civ, though i never whip...i try to expand early for the most resources cuz later in games ive been screwed (no coal, no iron) and noone wants to trade me those....religion im still kinda up min the air bout what civ to use (usually i go organized and convert all cities to state religion.....) hows this sounding?
 
by the way...(bear with me please) whats ALC? and never, EVER say "metric"!!!! (hehe im an engineer, CONSTANTLY being asked "did you update the metric?")...GRRRRRR

ALC = All Leaders Challenge, the games I play and post in this forum for debate and discussion. Check the links in my sig.
 
Xan - Thanks.....basically what i do is get first city, ten research all worker need techs i need, and build one worker, then 1 settler for next city..then barracks and archers as needed.....i try to have 3 -4 cities in the early stages, then build wonders if possible, but just what i can honestly (libraries, granaries, etc...) as for workers, i try to divvy up farms and cottages, and mine the hills.....always connect cities w oads, and use slavery civ, though i never whip...i try to expand early for the most resources cuz later in games ive been screwed (no coal, no iron) and noone wants to trade me those....religion im still kinda up min the air bout what civ to use (usually i go organized and convert all cities to state religion.....) hows this sounding?

This isn't quite the detail I was hoping for, but I'll make a few comments and suggestions.

Unless you start with fishing and have seafood to work, or your worker will have nothing to do once it is built, worker first is the way to go. It sounds like you are doing this.

As for the very beginning, in general you want to get 2 workers and a settler out as quickly as you can. You also want to grow your capital as quickly as possible and be working all improved tiles. The problem is that you can't grow your capital while producing the workers and settler. The solution to this is to research Bronze Working and chop wood. You will need to adopt a different strategy if forests aren't available, but usually a few are. Usually research Bronze Working first, and it will be complete by the time you finish the worker. Start on another worker and chop it, then a warrior if necessary and settler, chopping all the time. This will get the settler out and your capital growing as soon as possible, and give you 2 workers to improve tiles (1 worker just isn't enough for a fast start in most cases). This will probably take 4 forests to accomplish.

Now if you have copper nearby, that will probably be the location for city 2. If not, settle in the best available spot. It is certainly a viable option to build the great wall in the capital after getting the settler out. This will allow you to ignore military for a short period of time. But you should have food resources, and be growing the capital as quickly as possible, so production is taking a backseat to food until capital gets close to max size. If you need another city (for example no copper, and you have to found a third city to get horses), you might need to build another settler in the capital before reaching it's happy cap. But in general, you want your capital to get to the happy cap and be working ALL improved tiles as quickly as possible. You may build a barracks if you don't need any warriors/can't build axemen yet. But the idea for the barracks is not to build archers for defense.

Military ... archers are the last choice, and the tech should only be researched if nothing else is available (you have no copper, no horses, and probably no iron). It's better to build a few warriors and fogbust and defend from forests waiting for IW than waste beakers on archery in my opinion.

Workers ... don't waste time building roads if your city is working unimproved tiles, or might work an unimproved tile because you built roads. An exception is hooking up a NEEDED resource. Don't build a road on that corn when your health cap is 10 and your happy cap is 6 if there is anything more productive for a worker to do. An improved tile is anywhere from 2x as productive to 4x as productive disregarding commerce as an unimproved tile. You mentioned divvying up farms and cottages. Unless you really need food, farms are not very good improvements (although much better on floodplains than grasslands). Although it may be necessary to build some farms, your capital will usually have enough food to grow quickly without any, and ideally your second city (and most cities for that matter) should have 2 food sources and not need farms other than floodplains in the early game. If you are using cottages for commerce, build primarily cottages, and along the river first. One of your first 3 cities will need to have high production. In this case, you may need more farms to grow and work mines at the same time. Try to split your cities up between production and commerce, and focus on maximizing hammer output in a production city and commerce in a commerce city.

I'll probably have more later, but that's long enough for now.
 
Well, the above post seems to have covered a lot of what I have to say, in more detail. And with a lot of extra points besides. But I'll leave this out there to be read.

I don't think I quite fit the criteria for being an expert, but hopefully some of what I say has something to it.

Researching the worker techs you need to work the capital's cross is a sound way to start. I'd invariably make bronze working the priority as soon as you have a food resource or two usable, though. The benefits of slavery have already been talked about, but seeing where the copper is also happens to be pretty important.

This connects into a question about your build order. How many scouts or warriors are you building, and how soon? One of the main things to be doing in the earliest part of the game is getting to know as much of your continent as possible. Knowing whether there's copper nearby before you've founded your second city tends to aid placement somewhat. Also, it's nice to have an idea as early as possible whether your opponents have copper close to them or not. And what other resources they have access to.

One further thing to mention - although there's a fair chance you're aware already - is that your city doesn't grow when producing a worker or settler. It's another argument for getting a scout or two produced right away. Letting your city grow to size two before starting on a worker means the worker should be churned out that much more quickly, whilst you're getting the benefit from another tile's worth of commerce, or whatever.

Plus your scout will be off popping huts before the AI can. Which is also nice.

When you're building an early wonder, or indeed any wonder, have an idea what you're building it for. Taking, say, Stonehenge as an example. Are the points towards a Great Prophet worth not building units and infrastructure? Free monuments are nice. But again, ask yourself if you have a need for them.

The beauty of the game is that in different situations the answer will be different. The main point is that you shouldn't be building a wonder simply because you can.
 
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