camel archers/polls/other

[woodshadows]

Is it possible to start a poll or do you need moderator status for that? Moderator Action: Poll added . I'd like a poll comparing camel archers with keshiks, two units who share many traits, I'm sure most will vote the keshik in but I'd like to hear any praise and reasons for that praise that may be made for the camel archer.

Also, rather than start a separate thread I'll ask here, a question about promotions. I noticed the other day when attacking catherine's cossacks they had some modifier on them "40% open terrain bonus" or something, making them extremely difficult to kill in the field with both ranged and melee attacks. I'm wondering if that means that getting promotions like "open combat bonus" or "rough terrain bonus" gives you the bonus even when being shot at by cities/ranged units? I always thought you needed to get the ranged protection promotion to protect against range.

I also wonder in the case of camel archers or keshiks, which promotions do you put on them? I mean, if you put on the ranged attack bonuses then when you upgrade to cavalry they are no longer effective I think? Or does "ranged attack bonus in open terrain" also mean that they have extra strength on the defence against ranged attacks in open terrain, as I notice that my ranged units (crossbows,camel archers,keshiks,catapults all seem to take a ranged hit far better than my melee troops).

Anyways I've been playing haroun a lot lately and find the camel archers an okay unit, very weak on the defense but if you are smart and cautious with them and use lots of hit and run tactics you can do a lot of damage to the ai.. granted keshiks with the extra movement are even better suited to this, but keshiks also have a weaker ranged attack and cost a significant amount more to build. Also, I'm a big fan of the bazaar, that combined with the trade route gold with a large empire means a load of money to buy up all the city states to your side who basically fuel your culture/science/military with the patronage tree, as opposed to the mongol trait of a bonus vs city states where to make use of it you have to basically declare war on every city state in the game, if you want to take out more than 2, which is kind of a waste of time and effort when they give far more as allies.

 

[jmick175]

Camel Archers are more powerful than Keshiks in the short term. That's about the extent of their praise. Even then, it's only 15 as opposed to 13. Not a huge difference.

Keshiks get 5 moves compared to a Camel Archers 3. Keshiks earn double the promotion points. Keshiks also earn double the great general points (which lead towards the super powerful Khan, when compared to a normal great general). Basically, you can hit and run anything with a Keshik and they won't be able to hit back, even mounted units. This allows you to get promotions super quick. If you beeline your promotions towards getting logistics, 1.5 Keshiks can take out anything you throw at them for a very long time, tech wise.


Keshiks are stupidly overpowered, but it is how Mongolia almost took over the entire known world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mongol_Empire_map.gif

 

[chazzycat]

Anyone can create a poll, I think it's just a checkbox.

But that one sounds somewhat pointless to be honest...no one is going to prefer Camel Archers. jmick175 has explained it pretty well.

 

[Carnifaux]

Keshiks offensive stats and cost might not be as good as the camel archer but their other benefits far outweigh the increased cost and reduced strength.

Personally I believe camel archers could use a bit of ranged tweaking, maybe try 16 or 17 instead of 15 ranged strength.

 

[woodshadows]

Ill play devil's advocate here, as I've tried both and found the camel archers the more fun to play with.

The cost for a keshik is 225 vs 150 for the camel archer. In game terms this means I can have 6 camel archers for the cost of 4 keshiks, with a larger army this difference grows exponentially, so I could have 12 camels for 8 keshiks. This is a vast amount of extra attacks, attacks which are likewise stronger than the keshiks'. The movement advantage of the keshiks is very nice, it can save you in many cases, but that's part of the fun of the camel archer too, it forces you to be very smart and tactical to avoid loss. I generally have a couple scouts with high visibility on them to keep an eye on the periphery of a battlezone, my camel archers are able to scoot in, using terrain features to advantage, then scoot out again before they can be hit. As for the khan, I find it a good unit, the healing ability is nice, but having one unit with medic on it isn't much different really, not in a huge way, I'd much rather have the vast money and trade ability for other luxuries (happiness) i get from the bazaar. Also, having double oil means all those camel archers eventually get to be upgraded into a huge army of tanks, while the mongol unique ability loses steam once horses are surpassed. I will say the quick study is an awesome trait, this is an advantage the keshik has over the camel archer. The great general bonus tho isn't so great really, you generally only need one great general throughout the game anyhow, the rest end up being burned for golden ages, but after a few of those they lose steam too.

 

[The_J]

Is it possible to start a poll or do you need moderator status for that?

Anyone can create a poll, I think it's just a checkbox.

Everyone can create a poll directly after creating a thread, if they check the box for it.
Attaching polls to existing threads is only possible for moderators.
So if you like to have a poll, then either start a new thread with one, or ask a moderator to attach one to this thread .

 

[vanjito]

so I could have 12 camels for 8 keshiks.

I'd trade 12 camels for 8 keshiks any day of the week and twice on Sundays

 

[The_J]

Moderator Action: Poll added .

 

[Babri]

We need some votes for Keshliks !
Anyway Keshlik beats Camel archer easily because of their high movement points & quick XP gain which leads to quicker march, range & double attack promos.

 

[woodshadows]

Oh, also to defray the benefit of the Khan unit, it has been my experience that with the vast wealth arabia generates and having every city state allied to you, with the patronage tree letting them gift the occasional special person it has happened in nearly every game that I've been gifted a khan unit as one of those special people.

 

[woodshadows]

Looks like I'm in the minority here. I am curious how many voting keshik have played arabia (more than once) to form a fair comparison. I don't want to assume too much but I know Arabia isn't as sexy as the Mongols to play as, especially not with the prevailing anti-Islamist sentiment in the western world right now. Just hard to believe people would willingly choose a weaker more expensive unit and far less useful secondaries and ua (imo).

 

[jmick175]

I'm not (initially) comparing the secondaries or the unique abilities.

Yes, I made the comment that Keshiks generate points to the Khan unit as opposed to regular great generals. Perhaps that is my mistake; I was trying to emphasize the point that advantage to getting double promotions and double general points (which is huge).

And to the extent that Camel Archers are the more powerful of the two, that is correct. I would rather have 1 Camel Archer over 1 Keshik. I would rather have 2 Camel Archers over 1 Keshik. The magic number for me is probably around 2.5 newly created Keshiks vs. 4, 5, or 6 Camel Archers. At about 2.5 Keshiks, you can take out one of those Camel Archers each turn, bringing the ratio more even rather quickly...all the while hitting and running away to the safety provided by 2 extra movements.

 

[woodshadows]

I would argue that with 6 camel archers, i could outflank your 4 keshiks and use terrain to advantage to remove any advantage you may have with your 2 extra movement points. Once the movement points advantage is removed (rivers, hills, forests, great wall, zone of control) it becomes a numbers game and 6 camels will tear apart 4 keshiks. If you factor in losses on either side once again the more quickly built camel archer means I'll be able to field replacements much sooner than the mongol player.

I'm unconvinced that double gg points is such a big advantage unless you are taking part in one of your initial wars and have two fronts to cover of some distance from eachother, in which case having a second gg quickly can be a lifesaver. In most of my wars I find only one gg can cover all or nearly all of my troops, if moved methodically to match the positions of my troops at any one time. The khan does make this easier to accomplish but it's not a difficult procedure to start with. I could also argue that with the extra attacks from the extra camel archers I will have I would be generating extra gg points as well over a smaller keshik army; not that I would care about this so much however, in most of my games I'm at a loss as to what to do with all of my great generals and burn them for the mini golden ages which come after you've burned any great artists or great merchants which city states constantly give you. Increased promotions seems the only edge for the keshik, but considering these promotions are mostly lost after upgrading to cavalry it's not really that special unless you're playing a small map and can knock out everyone before the age of keshiks ends. I generally play larger maps and it takes me into the modern era before I've taken everyone out, in which event the arabian ua of double oil has great synergy with the camel archer army --> cossack army I've built to create a large army of tanks. I know this poll isn't about civ abilities but so often the civ abilities play into the worth of a unit or building. Again, with the gold advantage you will have as the Arabs, with only perhaps persia, greece (city state bonus) and china as competition for city states, you should have a good opportunity to monopolize most of the maps oil not within the borders of your opponents. With Arabia I take the honor tree and patronage tree right off the bat and go on a camel archer fueled conquering spree with the honor tree, which nets me loads of luxury resources (to trade for gold) and traderoute gold (+1 with ua) to fuel my patronage tree binge in buying up every city state on the map. At that point I can gift militaristic city state troop gifts (usually widely dispersed across the map) to any city state on the border of my next intended victim, a huge edge in any war. Patronage is almost overpowered if you ask me, science and culture and great people generation just becomes enormous and arabs are well-placed to have an edge in exploiting this.

 

[snarzberry]

It's the 5 movement points, coupled with the ability to move after attacking, that makes the big difference and is why the keshik is the best unit in the game.

The CA has three moves and can also move after attacking. That means it can move into a plain tile, shoot and move again. Or it can move into a rough tile and shoot. The movement options to the keshiks are much larger, allowing moving into rough tiles, shooting and then moving away 2 tiles or moving 2 tiles, shooting and retreating 2 tiles etc. This opens up a world of tactical maneuvering that is not available to any other unit, in such a way that it so outclasses everything around it in it's era and is not matched for a very long time indeed.

With the keshiks mobility and with a lot of units you can bring so many more shots to bear on your targets, all the while dancing away to safety. You can only do this to a much lesser degree with CA's. The bottom line is that keshiks leverage the human players ability to out think the AI tactically more than any other unit and this makes it the most effective in the game.

 

[woodshadows]

I think in the case of 6 camels vs 4 keshiks you'd find those two extra camels would provide ample opportunity to flank you and deprive you of advantage.. since unit value also includes cost to build.

 

[jmick175]

I imagine the player would have to be pretty absent minded to allow himself to become fully surrounded and incapable of escape through pure retreat.

Even in that case though, the 4 Keshiks would be able to gang up on a single Camel Archer, destroy it and provide enough space to get away, removing the alleged advantage.

 

[snarzberry]

Upgrading from chariot archers, typically done in a keshik domination game, mostly negates the increased cost.

And really what is the question we're asking here? Seems to me it's not the unlikely scenario of a field battle between 6 camels and 4 keshiks, but which unit is of better use to conquer AI civilizations. Multi-player may be a different beast but it's my understanding that we're considering single player utility.

Compared to the keshik the camels are cumbersome and slow, forced to take occasional damage and heal, and cannot move as quickly between enemy civs on the attack.

Think of situations like when attacking a city surrounded by a lot of forest tiles but with one hill that is 2 tiles away from the city from which ranged attacks can be launched. A large army of keshiks, say 7, can likely all rotate through that hill tile attacking the city and still move away to safety. No other unit can do that. The camels run out of move points and bog down the area. There are lots of situations like that where the keshiks really show their worth, both attacking cities and clearing out enemy units.

It's not that camel archers are bad units, they aren't. But it's like comparing volkswagen to porsche 911.

 

[Rex_Mundi]

If you compare Arabia to Mongolia, I think Arabia is a stronger civ.

If you compare the units, I think the Keshik wins, by a large margin.
Keshik alone can form a deadly offensive force. Camels are better served with some mele unit in front, and will advance much slower.
On the defence Camels can compare or maybe even beat Keshiks, using the roads to compensate for the slower movement.

 

[Babri]

Looks like I'm in the minority here. I am curious how many voting keshik have played arabia (more than once) to form a fair comparison. I don't want to assume too much but I know Arabia isn't as sexy as the Mongols to play as, especially not with the prevailing anti-Islamist sentiment in the western world right now. Just hard to believe people would willingly choose a weaker more expensive unit and far less useful secondaries and ua (imo).

I've played both civs a dozen times. Keshliks are cleary better because you can anihillate any army with them. Camel Archers however are defensive in nature & may need some protection of LS as they lack the speed to outrun other cavalry units. If you play VEM mod then Camels are more useful than vanilla camels due to better attack & ignoring terrain costs in deserts.
Many people consider Keshliks OP but I disagree with them. The whole Mongol civ revolves around horses & offence. If you don't get enough horses, or you are unable to do what Genghis Khan did, then you are as good as dead because early mid domination is the only viable path for Mongols unlike civs like China,Arabia, Persia etc who can change their paths according to the situation. (Eg : Arabia => Lots of gold => Domination with the help of rush buying/expanding like crazy/allying CS/signing RAs rapidly etc)

 

[Lexicus]

After only a single war, my Keshiks are promoted to Logistics. 2 ranged attacks at I've used armies of 5 Keshiks, a Khan, and a single melee unit to conquer entire continents. Camel Archers are nowhere near as decisive.

I don't play multiplayer but I would be very surprised if anyone here could use an army based on Camel Archers to beat one based on Keshiks, unless the Arabs had the Great Wall and all the fighting took place on their territory.
2 attacks at 13 strength beat one at 15 by a lot.