Can a man be punished for another's crime, a son for his father's?

[aneeshm]

While musing on Christian theology, I thought of this question.

Can one man be punished for another's crime? If he were, would it be right?

And is it possible for one man to "accept" another's sin, and the punishment for it, as his own?

Also, can the guilt or "sin" of a crime be passed on from father to son?

 

[Xanikk999]

No, i dont even think there was any law like that ever in history.

Its dumb.

 

[Mirc]

No way. This is against the basic principles of Christianity.

Oh, and

Spoiler :

And if someone is going to bring me a link about some obscure sect with 100 followers that believes that, well, don't bother.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No way. This is against the basic principles of Christianity.

Mirc, then I cant help but wonder how as a Christian you explain the concept of 'original sin'.

 

[aneeshm]

I ask this because I realised that though Christian theology says that the answers to all these questions are "No, no, no, and no", the whole edifice of Christianity is built upon the premise of these answers being "Yes, yes, yes, and yes".

 

[Xanikk999]

I ask this because I realised that though Christian theology says that the answers to all these questions are "No, no, no, and no", the whole edifice of Christianity is built upon the premise of these answers being "Yes, yes, yes, and yes".

I dont really think so, this really only applies to jesus according to christians because he "supposedly" died for our sins.

Its not a universal concept in christianity.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I ask this because I realised that though Christian theology says that the answers to all these questions are "No, no, no, and no", the whole edifice of Christianity is built upon the premise of these answers being "Yes, yes, yes, and yes".

True but remember that thread I made a few weeks ago? Turns out most Christians have never read the Old Testament, and dont believe its important.

 

[Mirc]

@aneeshm: you could call the third one "sacrifice for someone else", which is allowed, and encouraged, but I guess this depends on the circumstances.

Edit: Crosspost. Exactly. I don't believe it is important. Read below.

Mirc, then I cant help but wonder how as a Christian you explain the concept of 'original sin'.

Well, I view it this way:
- the original sin was something from the old testament. Most of the old testament contradicts the new testament. The new one is the one given by Jesus, the one that counts. The old testament is kept as a tradition rather than a guideline book.
- in the old testament, it says all people in the world will be affected by what Adam did
- in the new testament, Jesus baptizes himself and tells us this is not going to have any effect if we are baptized.

So basically the New Testament made a huge revision to the Old Testament.

 

[Elrohir]

While musing on Christian theology, I thought of this question.

Can one man be punished for another's crime? If he were, would it be right?

In a sense, Christ was punished for our sins. However, He was not just a man - He was God Himself. A man could not be punished for the sins of another man, because he is not blameless, and could only be punished for his own sins. Because Jesus was perfect, He could be punished for our sins, since He could not be punished for any sins He committed, because there were none.

Is it "right"? It certainly isn't fair. I think Christ's death was the greatest tragedy and injustice ever imaginable, and was certainly unfair to Christ and God. But the beauty of grace is that it makes life unfair.

And is it possible for one man to "accept" another's sin, and the punishment for it, as his own?

Only if you are without sin, which we aren't. So no, I can't accept the punishment for your sin, and get you into Heaven by being punished for you, because I am not perfect.

Also, can the guilt or "sin" of a crime be passed on from father to son?

Simply put, no. We all have the tendency, or "bent" to sin because we are Adam's children, however we are not actually guilty of it. We follow in his footsteps and inevitably sin, however God may punish us for our own sins, but He would not do so for the sins of others.

 

[aneeshm]

Without Jesus, and the mythology around him, what would Christianity be? It would not even exist!

Let's analyse this cornerstone of Christian thought, "Jesus died for our sins!".

First, this implies that it is, indeed, possible for a man to accept the sin of another, and be punished for it, as Jesus did to himself. (Question 3)

Now, the sin referred to here is "Original Sin".

This is a sin which is supposedly passed down from Adam to all mankind, and which had to be expunged by Jesus' act.

Therefore, sins can, again, be "passed down" from father to son. (Question 4)

It also means that Jesus was essentially punished for the crime of another man. (Question 1)

And because it was God-ordained that this happen, it was also right and just. (Question 2)








What more is left?





EDIT: Crosspost with Elrohir.

 

[El_Machinae]

In the Old Testament, offspring were frequently punished for the activities of their elders or leaders. Sometimes at God's hand, sometimes at his direction. There's no 'fair', really.

People insist on handwaving the atrocities, though.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Well, I view it this way:
- the original sin was something from the old testament. Most of the old testament contradicts the new testament. The new one is the one given by Jesus, the one that counts. The old testament is kept as a tradition rather than a guideline book.
- in the old testament, it says all people in the world will be affected by what Adam did
- in the new testament, Jesus baptizes himself and tells us this is not going to have any effect if we are baptized.

So basically the New Testament made a huge revision to the Old Testament.

A 'Christian' who doesnt believe in Original Sin Mirc, were you baptized? Did you/will you baptize your children?

 

[Elrohir]

First, this implies that it is, indeed, possible for a man to accept the sin of another, and be punished for it, as Jesus did to himself. (Question 3)

Only if he is perfect. Imperfect men such as you and I could not accept the sin of another, because we are already guilty.

Now, the sin referred to here is "Original Sin".

This is a sin which is supposedly passed down from Adam to all mankind, and which had to be expunged by Jesus' act.

Therefore, sins can, again, be "passed down" from father to son. (Question 4)

Some Christians think Original Sin literally taints us, and that we are born already with the guilt of having committed sins because of Adam. I disagree. This is not, however, and issue essential to salvation, it's secondary.

It also means that Jesus was essentially punished for the crime of another man. (Question 1)

Not one man, all men.

And because it was God-ordained that this happen, it was also right and just. (Question 2)

No. What happened to Jesus was not fair, or "just", because He didn't deserve it. It was moral, however, because a greater good came of it.

A 'Christian' who doesnt believe in Original Sin Mirc, were you baptized? Did you/will you baptize your children?

I know this was directed at Mirc, but I don't believe in Original Sin in the sense that we are all literally guilty of Adam's sin, and I have not been baptized. The doctrine of original sin has not played into that decision, however.

 

[Mirc]

A 'Christian' who doesnt believe in Original Sin Mirc, were you baptized? Did you/will you baptize your children?

Yes I am baptized and I will baptize my children. But not that I don't believe in it - I believe the original sin is not something that important, because in the new testament, which is as I said what defines Christianity, or in any case much more definitory for Christianity than the old one, we have a way to be sure it doesn't have any influence on us. I also view the original sin to be symbolic. I don't actually believe that someone bit an apple, but rather a way of explaining to the ancients that the perfectly human curiosity has certain implications, and the moment is an explanation and invocation of the time when we were animals no more.

 

[CartesianFart]

In a sense, Christ was punished for our sins.

What sins that was made that Christ was punished?

 

[JollyRoger]

So the 10 commandments are obsolete?

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me

 

[Phlegmak]

While musing on Christian theology, I thought of this question.

Can one man be punished for another's crime? If he were, would it be right?

And is it possible for one man to "accept" another's sin, and the punishment for it, as his own?

Also, can the guilt or "sin" of a crime be passed on from father to son?

No, one person shouldn't be made guilty of another person's crime.

By the way, there are cultures today that practice that.

In Japan, debt is inherited. So if your father goes into debt, when he dies, you inherit the debt.

In the psychotic dictatorship of North Korea, they punish a person and three generations of relatives. Or something like that.

In some place in the Bible, something like this is mentioned. God said he would punish a person and up to three generations of his descendants. I don't know where it is and I'm not going to look it up.

A man can get a venereal disease, and give that to his wife, who gives it to her child. So in that manner, a "crime" can be given by a man to his own child.

 

[Mise]

I think it would qualify as blasphemy to imitate Jesus in this way.

 

[Mirc]

So the 10 commandments are obsolete?

The old testament also says there that God was fighting a certain person and since he couldn't beat him he took one leg from him and he could fight no more. Simple rule about Christianity: when something is in the old testament and contradicted in the new one, the new one is right. The commandments are important, but some parts are outdated by the new testament. They are not obsolete, but as I said some parts got changed. The new testament is the basis of Christianity, not the old one. The old one is what the new one evolved from.

 

[Phlegmak]

By the way:

I hate the concept of original sin. It makes god completely petty and evil. He blames the entirety of humanity for the sins of two people. That's absolutely outrageous.

And I hate it when some of you say that the 10 Commandments don't apply to Christians. That's just a lie. When I was Catholic, I went to Catholic schools for grades K - 12. The 10 Commandments were everpresent. So just drop this ridiculous notion that the 10 Commandments don't apply to Christians.