Can a man be punished for another's crime, a son for his father's?

[warpus]

Christ's death atones for the sins of all those who accept Him. If I tell a lie, because I am a Christian, Christ's death atones for that lie. Or if I kill, or steal something, or any number of things. Christ's death doesn't atone me from the corporeal punishment for my actions (I could still got to jail for committing a crime, and simply being forgiven by Christ isn't enough to get me out of it) but it does make up for it in the eyes of God.

So why does God send some Christians to hell, then?

 

[Elrohir]

So why does God send some Christians to hell, then?

No one who is actually a Christian ever goes to hell. Where did you get that idea? Some people may say that they are Christians and go to hell, but they are not sincere. If you are sincerely a Christian and die, then you will not go to hell - period.

 

[CartesianFart]

Moral wrongs which occur in a corporeal reality.

I suppose that as long as I don't get caught.On the other-hand I do agree morally that most of my laws are somewhat just and act accordance of obeying it.

The just punishment God would give you for your sins

What are the punishment?

I'm sorry? Could you please rephrase? That sentence/paragraph didn't make much sense.

I thought i was being definitive enough.Maybe your sense of what is sardonic is not present in you.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No one who is actually a Christian ever goes to hell. Where did you get that idea? Some people may say that they are Christians and go to hell, but they are not sincere. If you are sincerely a Christian and die, then you will not go to hell - period.

How about if a sincere Christian, in a moment of passion, kills someone, and then he dies before he gets to ask God for forgiveness?

 

[Elrohir]

I suppose that as long as I don't get caught and I do agree morally that most of my laws are somewhat just and act accordance of obeying it.

God is omniscient, He knows everything that you've ever done. It's not a matter of Him "catching" you.

What are the punishment?

Hell.

I thought i was being definitive enough.Maybe your sense of what is sardonic is not present in you.

I just couldn't understand what you were saying. Could you rephrase?

 

[CartesianFart]

God is omniscient, He knows everything that you've ever done. It's not a matter of Him "catching" you.

Oh,I forgot.Well then,i am watching God as well to make sure i can outrunn him.

Hell.

Don't believe in it.
Of course sometimes i do catch myself using the word 'hell' for the reason to make a metaphor out of it.

I just couldn't understand what you were saying. Could you rephrase?

Just read it one more time to get what i am jestering on.

Unless your saying that Jesus got somekind of "get-out-of-jail" free card as long as I sincerly ask for forgiveness of my wrong-doings in the world for in order to escape eternal damnation whether something my soul goes to after death or some kind of psychosis of guilt-obsession? :lol

 

[warpus]

No one who is actually a Christian ever goes to hell. Where did you get that idea? Some people may say that they are Christians and go to hell, but they are not sincere. If you are sincerely a Christian and die, then you will not go to hell - period.

I don't think many Christians would agree with this.

In fact, I was a Christian for the first half of my life, and this is the first time I have ever heard of something like this.

Would you be able to support this with scripture?

 

[Elrohir]

Don't believe in it.

And that means it doesn't exist?

Just read it one more time to get what i am jestering on.

Unless your saying that Jesus got somekind of "get-out-of-jail" free card as long as I sincerly ask for forgiveness of my wrong-doings in the world for in order to escape eternal damnation whether something my soul goes to after death or some kind of psychosis of guilt-obsession? :lol

If I'm reading this right....yes, Jesus's death is a sort of "get out of jail free" card that allows us to escape punishment for our sins. We don't deserve it, but we can accept it because of God's generosity.

I don't think many Christians would agree with this.

In fact, I was a Christian for the first half of my life, and this is the first time I have ever heard of something like this.

Would you be able to support this with scripture?

Whether you can fall away from Christ and no longer be considered a Christian is a touchy issue. However, what isn't a touchy issue is whether a Christian can go to hell - he can't. If the idea of "once saved, always saved" is true, then even if you no longer try to follow Christ, you will got to Heaven when you die, if you were sincere. (And if you weren't sincere and were not truly saved, then you will go to hell) The alternate idea is that you can choose to no longer follow Christ, in which case you are no longer a Christian, and can then go to hell. I am unsure on which side to take on this issue, so I am effectively neutral.

So someone may be called a Christian, or who was called one in the past, can go to hell. But if you are truly a Christian when you die, you will go to Heaven. If you're a Christian, then you will go to Heaven, period. The debate is on what constitutes a real Christian, not whether Christians can go to hell, because they cannot.

 

[JollyRoger]

So someone may be called a Christian, or who was called one in the past, can go to hell. But if you are truly a Christian when you die, you will go to Heaven. If you're a Christian, then you will go to Heaven, period. The debate is on what constitutes a real Christian, not whether Christians can go to hell, because they cannot.

What if I accept Christ, but at the last moment before I die, I no longer believe in Christ? I have not sinned since I lost my faith and my past sins have already been forgiven. Do I get in?

 

[CartesianFart]

And that means it doesn't exist?

No.I am not denying it or affirming it.I just don't care for the concept.

If I'm reading this right....yes, Jesus's death is a sort of "get out of jail free" card that allows us to escape punishment for our sins. We don't deserve it, but we can accept it because of God's generosity.

Sounds like "fear" is the motivation for you to take God's generosity instead of appreciating it.

 

[Winner]

While musing on Christian theology, I thought of this question.

Can one man be punished for another's crime?

Yes, it happened countless times throughout history.

If he were, would it be right?

No.

And is it possible for one man to "accept" another's sin, and the punishment for it, as his own?

Jesus Christ allegedly died in order to wash away the sins of mankind.

Also, can the guilt or "sin" of a crime be passed on from father to son?

Christianity is based on Judaism and thus it has adopted its patriarchal and family-centered traditions. I don't know, it is possible, IMO.

 

[El_Machinae]

Matthew 7 talks about how followers of Christ will not gain Heaven.

 

[Elrohir]

What if I accept Christ, but at the last moment before I die, I no longer believe in Christ? I have not sinned since I lost my faith and my past sins have already been forgiven. Do I get in?

There is no unified Christian answer on this. Calvinists would generally say that either you were not saved before (In which case you're going to hell just like anyone who never claimed to be a Christian) or you were truly saved, in which case what you believe at the time of your death is irrelevant, and you're going to Heaven even if you die cursing God. (Although they would probably say that if you die cursing God, you probably weren't saved initially, and you're back to square one)

Many Arminians, or those who favor a more free-will centered theology, would probably say that since you rejected Christ before you died, you stopped being saved, and your sins are no longer forgiven, so you pay the price of all the sins which were forgiven, but no longer were, and are now going to hell.

As I said, who exactly is a Christian, and whether you can fall away for good is a controversial subject - whether a true Christian can go to hell is not.

No.I am not denying it or affirming it.I just don't care for the concept.

Sounds like "fear" is the motivation for you to take God's generosity instead of appreciating it.

I hate the concept. That doesn't mean I don't believe in it.

First of all, why is that an illegitimate motivation? I'd bet at least half the reason people don't rob banks is because they know they'd probably get caught. That certainly influences my decision making, but it is hardly the be all and end all - I believe in Christ because I believe He is goodness and love.

Matthew 7 talks about how followers of Christ will not gain Heaven.

That depends on what you mean by "followers". There will be those who claim to be Christians who will not go to Heaven, certainly - but that is because they were not truly Christians, not because some Christians don't make the cut.

 

[warpus]

Whether you can fall away from Christ and no longer be considered a Christian is a touchy issue. However, what isn't a touchy issue is whether a Christian can go to hell - he can't. If the idea of "once saved, always saved" is true, then even if you no longer try to follow Christ, you will got to Heaven when you die, if you were sincere. (And if you weren't sincere and were not truly saved, then you will go to hell) The alternate idea is that you can choose to no longer follow Christ, in which case you are no longer a Christian, and can then go to hell. I am unsure on which side to take on this issue, so I am effectively neutral.

So someone may be called a Christian, or who was called one in the past, can go to hell. But if you are truly a Christian when you die, you will go to Heaven. If you're a Christian, then you will go to Heaven, period. The debate is on what constitutes a real Christian, not whether Christians can go to hell, because they cannot.

Well, you must be from some wacky Christian cult then, because that's not at all what I was taught in Catholic school.

 

[Elrohir]

Well, you must be from some wacky Christian cult then, because that's not at all what I was taught in Catholic school.

I'm a non-denominational Christian. I've attended non-denominational, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches in my life - I am not part of any "cult", and as far as I'm aware, all of my beliefs fit within the Christian mainstream. (If not, however, all together - meaning that there is no one denomination that represents all my beliefs, but all my beliefs are common enough in one mainstream denomination or another)

Just because it's different from what you learned in Catholic school doesn't mean I'm a cultist. What did you learn in Catholic school, anyway?

 

[GenMarshall]

So why does God send some Christians to hell, then?

They end up in hell if they are not in a state of grace (IE free from Mortal Sins). However, their fate is up to God as we mortal humans cannot answer the question of the fate of what happens to someone after they died.

Can one man be punished for another's crime? If he were, would it be right?

No mortal man can be punished for another's crime. Its rather, unchristian like for that to happen.

And is it possible for one man to "accept" another's sin, and the punishment for it, as his own?

Also, can the guilt or "sin" of a crime be passed on from father to son?

This is a very vague question to ask. Since there are three types of sins. The first is Original Sin which we inherited from Adam and Eve in the accounts of Genesis. The other two sins are Mortal and Venial Sins which are actual sins. For a sin to be a mortal sin they must fullfill all of the conditions:

1. its subject must be grave (or serious) matter;
2. it must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense;
3. it must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.

A venial sin is a sin that does not fullfill all of the conditions that I have listed above. I know that the concept of Original Sin from Adam and Eve are complex or even silly, but here is what the Catechism says about the Original Sin:

By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").
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. In a nutshell within Catholic Theology is that it serves as a foundation for the neccesity of Baptism to cleanse all sins (Baptism also washes away actual sin (Venial and Mortal) for unbaptized adults).

I look at the First Sin that Adam and Eve as the start of the Salvation Epics that are found in Exodus with Noah freeing the Hebrew Slaves from Egypt right up to Jesus suffering on the cross and ultimately died for all of our sins.

 

[warpus]

all of my beliefs fit within the Christian mainstream.

I doubt it, since half of Christians are Roman Catholic.

Just because it's different from what you learned in Catholic school doesn't mean I'm a cultist. What did you learn in Catholic school, anyway?

I certainly didn't learn that if you go to hell you cease being a Christian shortly before you're sent there, or that all Christians go to heaven.

 

[Elrohir]

I doubt it, since half of Christians are Roman Catholic.

And half are not. What's your point? Just because I differ with the Roman Catholic church on some issues doesn't mean I'm a cultist.

I certainly didn't learn that if you go to hell you cease being a Christian shortly before you're sent there, or that all Christians go to heaven.

You learned that Christians can go to hell?

 

[warpus]

You learned that Christians can go to hell?

Of course. Watch out

 

[GenMarshall]

And half are not. What's your point? Just because I differ with the Roman Catholic church on some issues doesn't mean I'm a cultist.

No, it makes you a heritic! *gasp* A heritic!!! Get him!! *Pulls out a Katana* . After I am done with my tea .

(Note: That statement is just an e-joke )

You learned that Christians can go to hell?

Christians (From a Catholic point of View) can only go to hell if they are not in a state of grace. However, from my take on warpus's statement, he is merely referance in commiting apostasy in the minutes before your death out of Christianity (Note: Apostasy is a mortal sin).