stratego
Trying to be good.
Animals can communicate to each other, but do you think their level of communication is advance enough that they can tell lies. Lies that involve more than puffing out the hair to make yourself look bigger.
Can animals lie to each other
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Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
I don't think so, but if they could, they would.
Strider said:
What about ordered grunts and growls (which is basically what language is)?
I'm guessing animals are physically capable of lying, and might do so unintentionally (e.g. a monkey gives a false alarm), but I'm not sure as to why they'd do so intentionally. They might lie to other species that don't help them some way in order to help their own survival, but why would they lie to their own species?
JtheJackal
Emperor
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"Hey Bob, is there food behind that rock?"
"Uh no guys, you go on ahead Ill catch up with you in a second."
"Uh no guys, you go on ahead Ill catch up with you in a second."
E-Raser
hard, but unfair
I remember an amazing testing with chimpanse apes at about the end of the 70th. This apes were trained a simple language with gestures, because their anatomy doesn't allow them to speak. But they were able to express themselfes in a distinct manner.
The scientists found out that these apes were quite frequently lying. If they considered it useful to get more or better food, they lyed a lot.
But even chickens do "lie" in a way. A cock for example is able to give a certain call which indicates there's something to eat around. This makes the chickens come in this place. The joke is that he uses this call also if there isn't any food but he just wants to create more little chickens ^^.
At least it is cheating. I doubt it really counts as a lie because the cock for sure doesn't know about lying, but the apes DO know.
I guess each creature able to plan his deeds and to foresee its results at least in the closer future (which is true for this apes for granted) will be able to lie. I am not sure if they also are aware the terms good and bad as a moral term. But nevertheless they lie.
The scientists found out that these apes were quite frequently lying. If they considered it useful to get more or better food, they lyed a lot.
But even chickens do "lie" in a way. A cock for example is able to give a certain call which indicates there's something to eat around. This makes the chickens come in this place. The joke is that he uses this call also if there isn't any food but he just wants to create more little chickens ^^.
At least it is cheating. I doubt it really counts as a lie because the cock for sure doesn't know about lying, but the apes DO know.
I guess each creature able to plan his deeds and to foresee its results at least in the closer future (which is true for this apes for granted) will be able to lie. I am not sure if they also are aware the terms good and bad as a moral term. But nevertheless they lie.
Adler17
Prussian Feldmarschall
Some apes, especially the chimpansee (sp?), and other animals are lying. When they betray the "husband/ wife" they do not make noises as well as other significiant things to hide their "fun". Yes, animals lie. I think we must come away from the idea the animals are just depending on instinct. Even evil animals exist, like the two lions "Night" and "Darkness" who terrorized Africa in the beginning of the last century (there is a movie with Michael Douglas IIRC).
Adler
Adler
E-Raser
hard, but unfair
Moss321 said:
Concerning the apes I disagree, because they are aware about their own exsistance first. Second they are able to foresee the effect of their deeds and to plan into the future. Therefore they are also able to think in a way like "I am accused stealing the banana. If I say the truth I did it I will not be hugged. If I lie I will be hugged. I want to be hugged. Therefore I will deny I stole the banana." This are thoughts this apes are able to cope with and therefore I would say they DO lie. Not bluffing as an instinct, but really lying to achieve a advantage in the closer future. I guess they are not judging it in the sense they might have a bad concience after lying like human (should
) have.Adler17 said:
Defenitaly there are no evil animals. Only humans consider them "evil". But this both lions simply went out for dinner. How could they differ between eating zebras is good and eating men it wrong? For them it was just much easier to kill humans. They are slower, less hard to fight down, and they do not discover hunting lions as easily as their "normal" targets, ablitiy to hear and smell. So it was to them just as easy as to go to a drive in and order a crispy burger. But they are not evil in an objective meaning.
Lions are made to hunt, that's what they did. And of corse they take the easiest target they can bring down. Ill animals or young ones. And if they once checked how easy humans are to hunt, they will aim foe them. That's all.
Adler17
Prussian Feldmarschall
These animals were NOT just eating humans. As such I would never have mentioned them. Indeed it seemed they attacked only because they wanted to kill. They killed both humans and animals without eating them, although they had the chance to do so. They also attacked in such fierce attacks that they killed and killed without eating. Eating was NOT their motive. Just killing. And if we accept animals kill only because of eating or for defense this behaviour is not within the nature´s laws for killing.
Adler
P.S.: I admit there are only very few cases of these deeds and this is the only one I know now. Nevertheless the border from which is human behaviour and which animal is not certain.
Adler
P.S.: I admit there are only very few cases of these deeds and this is the only one I know now. Nevertheless the border from which is human behaviour and which animal is not certain.
EdwardTking
Deity
Adler17 said:
Animals have sub-sets of instincts that are switched in and on according
to the circumstances. For instance a predator may be in:
(a) Search for sign of animal (scent) mode
(b) Hunt detected (heard, scented, seen) animal mode.
(c) Disable (e.g. pack hunters) prey mode.
(d) Kill (e.g. individual hunters) prey mode.
(e) Eat fallen animal mode.
(f) Take prey away (parent hunter) for later consumption.
The inter-plays between these 'modes' are imperfect,
which is why a fox in a chicken factory will waste
its energy and kill more animals than it needs to do.
The problem here is that in the natural environment
occasions when there is the opportunity to kill in
vast excess of that required are not that common.
So there is little evolutionary pressure; to develope
the complex:
"OK - I have killed more than I can eat and carry
away; so I'd better stop killing and not exhaust
myself and risk depleting my long term food supply"
process which of course us cognitive humans are
very much aware of.
Consider the domestic cat; it detects prey, tracks it,
kills it and may bring it back through the cat food.
It probably won't eat it, preferring its regular cat flap.
But the inter-instinct management mechanism lacks the
complexity to evaluate:
(a) human gives me food
(b) therefore I don't need to bring food back
(c) therefore I don't need to kill prey
(d) therefore I don't need to hunt prey
(e) therefore I don't need to detect prey.
Yes they do.
In the interaction between animals & humans, you can see that they will intentionally distract the stupid human so that they can then achieve whatever is going on in their heads.
To give some examples.
#1 A wolf stands alone, making the stupid human curious. The stupid human aproaches with some caution but not fear. It was a trap, the human is now surrounded by a pack of hiding wolves. The wolves eat. Human loses.
#2 House cat smells steak but is aware that jumping onto the table results in a harsh shove back onto the floor. So the cat stands by the fridge and asks for milk. While the stupid human is getting milk from the fridge, the cat is dragging a steak as big as itself across a dirty floor. Human no longer wants the steak. Cat wins.
These are true stories. Clever animals. Stupid humans
In the interaction between animals & humans, you can see that they will intentionally distract the stupid human so that they can then achieve whatever is going on in their heads.
To give some examples.
#1 A wolf stands alone, making the stupid human curious. The stupid human aproaches with some caution but not fear. It was a trap, the human is now surrounded by a pack of hiding wolves. The wolves eat. Human loses.
#2 House cat smells steak but is aware that jumping onto the table results in a harsh shove back onto the floor. So the cat stands by the fridge and asks for milk. While the stupid human is getting milk from the fridge, the cat is dragging a steak as big as itself across a dirty floor. Human no longer wants the steak. Cat wins.
These are true stories. Clever animals. Stupid humans
stormbind said:#2 House cat smells steak but is aware that jumping onto the table results in a harsh shove back onto the floor. So the cat stands by the fridge and asks for milk. While the stupid human is getting milk from the fridge, the cat is dragging a steak as big as itself across a dirty floor. Human no longer wants the steak. Cat wins.
These are true stories. Clever animals. Stupid humans
More like cat gets killed on the spot. (It has happened before, too.)
But that is just to prove a point. Humans (as much as we want to) cannot keep an open mind. Surely, the cat will get punished, but for what? Think about it, it is not a survival thing, but we punish our pets for things we know will not affect out lives, or our survival.
(Yet again, stupid humans.
)
Well, I lived in the country (NL) so it's perhaps different. The cat spent most of it's time outside catching small birds, rodents, or fighting other cats. Sometimes it would bring the prey indoors and toss it around still alive 
She wasn't hunting as such, just playing. She would let things go... catch them, subdue them... let them go again. It was just a game. They mostly ended up dead in the end though
In the suburbs (USA), she turned lazy and just hung around the house getting fat. There weren't many other cats around and the wildlife was incompatible: she could not chase terrapins, raccoons, gators, bald eagles, or snakes
She wasn't hunting as such, just playing. She would let things go... catch them, subdue them... let them go again. It was just a game. They mostly ended up dead in the end though
In the suburbs (USA), she turned lazy and just hung around the house getting fat. There weren't many other cats around and the wildlife was incompatible: she could not chase terrapins, raccoons, gators, bald eagles, or snakes
ComradeDavo
Formerly God
Animals decieve each other all the time. Which I suppose you could class as lying.
Camoflage would be one example....another would be when small creatures make themselevs look all big and tough or whatever.
Camoflage would be one example....another would be when small creatures make themselevs look all big and tough or whatever.
Bozo Erectus
Master Baker
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Of course we can, we do it all the time.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
Outside the Human race, other animals lie too.
For instance, monkeys lie. I've read somewhere that they often gives fake signals in order to get the attention of the rest of the tribe out of something they don't want them to know. I've read that very recently I may find a link.
For instance, monkeys lie. I've read somewhere that they often gives fake signals in order to get the attention of the rest of the tribe out of something they don't want them to know. I've read that very recently I may find a link.
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