Can something be done about dungeon spawns?

[Earthling]

One example from my experience: I don't know the exact timing, but on a Quick speed multiplayer game at Noble difficulty a spawn of 3 Mistforms basically killed another player around turn 40.

I really can't say how many times or when this occurs to AI in my single player games but I know it does happen often well before turn 100 on Epic Immortal or Deity (though I don't really care if it's "game-ruining" for an AI when it's single player a lot of the time).

 

[JanusTalaiini]

If you don't play to crush, burn and destroy as much as you can, than you are a sandbox player in my book. And sandbox players deserve to be crushed. No offense.

And RTS players should go play a different game. No offense.

Both statements are equally ridiculous. Who are you to say how someone should play the game? In nearly every post you've made in this thread, you make the assumption that what you see as the point of the game is the only point of the game; what constitutes "fun" for you is the only way the game can be "fun."

Personally, I'm totally a sandbox player. I play on Noble to keep things interesting, but I don't enjoy the game for the challenge of grabbing every advantage I can against a killer opponent in an attempt to win the game. In fact, in all the years I've been playing FFH (dating back to when we were still using the vanilla civs in FFH 1), I can count the number of games I've actually finished on one hand.

I don't play to win. I don't play for the challenge. I play to enjoy the flavor.

You want to make your points? Fine, do it logically. But for you to state that the way I and many others play is not valid is, frankly, insulting and uncalled for.

 

[Rutee]

Honestly, folks, that statement speaks far more when you don't respond to it. He's either a troll, or he's so insanely focused on his own viewpoint that he can't understand others. For my part, I can understand wanting an early game rush, but that's sorta what Beastmen spam as Doviello, or other similar functions are for, not a lucky scout.

 

[MaxAstro]

It's actually more rare for me to get destroyed by an early game lair pop than it used to be nowadays. That said, I do usually play FF, which is a bit more forgiving, and I definitely think a lucky dice roll and a scout should not be enough to knock someone out of the game. Did have a recent issue with Spectres upgrading to Wraiths. The power difference between the two is huge, and one lucky Spectre becoming a Wraith can easily knock someone out of the game if it happens at a bad time, especially since the Wraith will have at least Combat 4, and worse Fear, making it very hard to counterattack. Just my two cents.

Oh, and Mr. Purple: You are one of those people who played C&C3 and did nothing but rush Scorpion tanks, aren't you? My problem with your argument (forgive me if you haven't played C&C3 and don't get this reference) is that eventually everyone will be playing Nod, everyone will be doing nothing but rushing Scorpion tanks, and every game will be the same, about nothing except who has the biggest e-pe... er, who can rush Scorpian tanks the fastest. And that would be terribly boring for everyone except those few people like you who think abusing a cheap strategy is the only way to have "fun".

 

[Dora190]

It's actually more rare for me to get destroyed by an early game lair pop than it used to be nowadays. That said, I do usually play FF, which is a bit more forgiving, and I definitely think a lucky dice roll and a scout should not be enough to knock someone out of the game. Did have a recent issue with Spectres upgrading to Wraiths. The power difference between the two is huge, and one lucky Spectre becoming a Wraith can easily knock someone out of the game if it happens at a bad time, especially since the Wraith will have at least Combat 4, and worse Fear, making it very hard to counterattack. Just my two cents.

Oh, and Mr. Purple: You are one of those people who played C&C3 and did nothing but rush Scorpion tanks, aren't you? My problem with your argument (forgive me if you haven't played C&C3 and don't get this reference) is that eventually everyone will be playing Nod, everyone will be doing nothing but rushing Scorpion tanks, and every game will be the same, about nothing except who has the biggest e-pe... er, who can rush Scorpian tanks the fastest. And that would be terribly boring for everyone except those few people like you who think abusing a cheap strategy is the only way to have "fun".

Or Flash Rush in Total Annihilation or Flak Rush in Homeworld 2. Personally I hate early game rushes as much as I hate uber weapons that kill everything on their own. Their fun once after that its boring.

 

[PanzerWolf]

I haven't read through the enitre thread, but I thought one of the main features of FfH2 was a hard start. Remember I read somewhere when I started playing this mod, that first goal was survival. If you survived the first turns, then you had to work to keep alive and then you could head for a victory. In vanillia, it's hard not to survive the first turns unless on levels way higher then you normally play or in MP.

And that's what Erebus is about AFAIK. It's a dangerous place, but can also give good rewards. Do you want to risk unleash an ancient demon in the hope for a prophet or a diciple? A demon can cripple you, but the reward can boost your early game.

 

[Hawkwood]

I haven't read through the enitre thread, but I thought one of the main features of FfH2 was a hard start. Remember I read somewhere when I started playing this mod, that first goal was survival. If you survived the first turns, then you had to work to keep alive and then you could head for a victory. In vanillia, it's hard not to survive the first turns unless on levels way higher then you normally play or in MP.

Perhaps you should read the whole thread then? Because they are talking about bosses spawning when you have absolutely no chance to defeat them, even if you had only been building warriors the whole time.

And that's what Erebus is about AFAIK. It's a dangerous place, but can also give good rewards. Do you want to risk unleash an ancient demon in the hope for a prophet or a diciple? A demon can cripple you, but the reward can boost your early game.
Which is why I [and a few others IIRC) think that lairs shouldn't be capable of granting the powerful good results either, until they are capable of spawning bosses.

 

[Grakor456]

I remember one game getting attacked by a Specter that upgraded to a Wraith, had like Combat 5 when he got to me. Was before turn 50, I managed to survive due to some luck and the fact that I was playing Doviello and thus had more warriors than most civs would have at that point in the game.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Honestly, folks, that statement speaks far more when you don't respond to it. He's either a troll, or he's so insanely focused on his own viewpoint that he can't understand others. For my part, I can understand wanting an early game rush, but that's sorta what Beastmen spam as Doviello, or other similar functions are for, not a lucky scout.

Actualy I just like playing as hard a game as possible. And I find that (C&C3 reference coming up) the best thing is when both sides rush scorps and they meet in an apocaliptic battle in the middle of the map. The battle newer realy stops and about a half an hour into the game, you have less and less scorps and more and more avatars on each side but the actual battle in the middle does not move an inch to eather side. It only ends when someone runs out of resources and gets owerrun becouse he can build no more. (no supperweapons)

I haven't read through the enitre thread, but I thought one of the main features of FfH2 was a hard start. Remember I read somewhere when I started playing this mod, that first goal was survival. If you survived the first turns, then you had to work to keep alive and then you could head for a victory. In vanillia, it's hard not to survive the first turns unless on levels way higher then you normally play or in MP.

And that's what Erebus is about AFAIK. It's a dangerous place, but can also give good rewards. Do you want to risk unleash an ancient demon in the hope for a prophet or a diciple? A demon can cripple you, but the reward can boost your early game.

That is exacly what I like about FFH.
And that is what I was trying to explain. Abit I failed to do so and was misunderstood.

I would like more of those instant victory/instant death situations.

 

[dyx]

From what I gathered the whole point is actually about the risks. That's why it would have helped reading the whole thread.
There is simply no risk in getting a scout to the enemy, just the chance to kill the enemy. You don't even need to build multiple scouts (well, maybe 1-2). If your scout gets killed on the way... well, you didn't lose anything you wouldn't have lost anyways. If he succeeds, you win without any effort.
No risk there. None.

In the end it's all about what is fun for who. There are the competitive players, who like it and who like that instant victory things, others who don't like it. Some never reload, I for example do. Because if I lose to some stupid thing after playing for one hour, it's no fun for me. But it's a wasted hour, especially because I am more of a builder player.
I can enjoy aggressive games and such, but for me this here is not that kind. I was quite high on WC3 ladder and played Night Elves, which I always found to be the most aggressive race. But this is Civilization and that's what I do. Because it's fun for me to play that way.
If it wasn't possible to pop up bosses early in the game, the aggressive player loses like nothing. It's very unlikely to happen anyways and you can hardly plan it. It's just bad luck, or collateral damage if everyone does it and one of 10 gets "lucky".
On the other hand, the rest would gain safety from having to start games anew. Which is especially nice if you don't have a whole lot of time on your hands, so your gaming time is actually something precious.

 

[cvlowe]

After having read this whole thread...

I find I disagree with the OP.

Basically his point is- This extremely rare event happened and I dont like it so it should be banned.

Part of the fun of the game is--- sometimes you get knocked out early. Should we add a check to Orthus to make sure he never spawns unless you have at least 5 warriors in your city? I already miss that barbarian hero ship that I HATED. It used to show up on turn one and start dumping skeletons on the coast. I know its supposed to be an event now but I have never seen it once since the move to "events". It's now rarer than finding a wild gorilla and FFH has really lost something unique.

 

[Rutee]

After having read this whole thread...

I find I disagree with the OP.

Basically his point is- This extremely rare event happened and I dont like it so it should be banned.

Part of the fun of the game is--- sometimes you get knocked out early. Should we add a check to Orthus to make sure he never spawns unless you have at least 5 warriors in your city? I already miss that barbarian hero ship that I HATED. It used to show up on turn one and start dumping skeletons on the coast. I know its supposed to be an event now but I have never seen it once since the move to "events". It's now rarer than finding a wild gorilla and FFH has really lost something unique.

I've never seen The Black Wind. Ever. As to comparisons to Orthus, Orthus doesn't spawn until turn 80 or so, and is objectively speaking, only a Tier 3 unit who wanders quite slowly. I'm objecting to things stronger then Orthus that can (Although usually don't) pop before Orthus.

If the community really hates the idea of limiting the T3/T4 spawns, can we at least have a way to keep Lairs outside cultural borders from being popped by rivals? My other problem with the idea of popping a T4 is that there is nothing you can do about it. You can not prevent this incredibly unlikely spawn, and since it's incredibly unlikely, if you plan for it by warrior-spamming, much more often then not, you hurt yourself. If you could somehow garrison these tombs (And why shouldn't you, flavor-wise; It's clearly in the interest of the state to keep any old yahoo who doesn't have their approval from checking the things), and push the burden to DoW for the tomb on them, it'd be much more, well, handle-able.

And that's what Erebus is about AFAIK. It's a dangerous place, but can also give good rewards. Do you want to risk unleash an ancient demon in the hope for a prophet or a diciple? A demon can cripple you, but the reward can boost your early game.

No. I really don't want to risk that demon until I KNOW I can handle it. I don't pop dungeons in my cultural borders until at least Tier 2.

I don't get a choice for a dungeon sitting juuust outside of reach, but still quite in range of aggroing on my civ after it wipes out the AI scout that pops him.

Besides, IMO the starts are plenty hard enough without T3-T4 barbs.

 

[cvlowe]

Ahh... the Black Wind... Used to regularly end more of my budding empires than Orthus ever did. Without it- Erebus is way more predictable. And boring.

Which is also why I dont like the idea of hamstringing the dungeon spawns. Sure it might- RARELY- dump you out of a game prematurely. But it's that unpredictability that makes the game exciting and fun.

And if you don't like it- there's already the option to turn it off in the game setup.

 

[Rutee]

Which is also why I dont like the idea of hamstringing the dungeon spawns. Sure it might- RARELY- dump you out of a game prematurely. But it's that unpredictability that makes the game exciting and fun.

I'm pretty sure you mean "Irritating". especially since some of us play this game with friends. We don't object to murderlating each other, but if a random tacnuke detonates and destroys someone, we tend to restart, rather then freeze that person out of 450+ turns.

And if you don't like it- there's already the option to turn it off in the game setup.

If I didn't like the concept behind lairs and dungeons, don't you think I'd do this? I just object to the uber spawns that you can't conceivably prevent. Again, I've offered up two possibilities that would, at least, remove my complaints; A spell or something that adds 1 :Culture: to a lair (Easy to flip, impossible to enter without a DoW, thus placing the burden to DoW on whoever's trying to crack open lairs; Place guards to make it more then 'just' a DoW), or an inability to pop Tier 3/4 for a while.

Please, by all means, tell me why, at least, the 1 idea is bad. In MP, you still have to expend resources to make it meaningful (Because if you don't have a guard they can just wander in with a scout). The unpredictability you and a few others seem to value so highly is preserved. All that's done is a counter is added.

Also, a third idea was mentioned; "Defend the Lair" means "Defend the Lair", not "Kill a scout, go on a rampage".

 

[Skyre Noktis]

If nothing else, popping a lair inside someone's borders should mean a DOW. It's essentially stealing - you might as well be kidnapping their cows resource next.

I'm not so sure what to do about lairs outside of borders, though, if anything. The 1 culture idea might work, but seems kind of hacky.

 

[cvlowe]

I'm pretty sure you mean "Irritating". especially since some of us play this game with friends. We don't object to murderlating each other, but if a random tacnuke detonates and destroys someone, we tend to restart, rather then freeze that person out of 450+ turns.

Nope. I absolutely meant fun and exciting. The example of The Black Wind used to piss me off to no end because it ended so many promising starts, but I really miss it now that it's gone.

Being unlucky enough to start near the Guardian of Pristin Pass can ruin your day also because even if you avoid it, the AI certainly wont and you can't hope to defend against those gargoyles early on. Should that be removed also?

And if you really don't like the epic dungeon results in MP- then you and your friends could just all agree to not explore them until a certain point. Or turn them off. I really don't see the need for any of the other changes you are calling for.

One bad result "ruined" one game. If it happened regularly- in half the games, or even 1/4- then I might agree. I just dont see one incidence of bad luck as a problem with the game.

 

[Senethro]

The Guardian isn't a problem. Gargoyles don't enter your borders unless theres a unit standing next to them. As long as you don't accidentally leave a worker to tempt them, which leaves them standing beside a city on the next turn, they are not a problem.

The 1-spot of culture is a pretty nice idea except I think it should decay if the unit leaves the tile. Can't have someone running about and getting free sentries on all dungeons/lairs.

 

[Imuratep]

I consider it much worse getting an acceptable starting position for everyone (3+ human players). Those games you can build your starting city but the other available positions are either jungle or tundra or even your starting city is really bad (tongues of land with 4 fish without exploration) are really annoying. I tend to play everything, but not everyone loves early aggro as much as me. Counting the number of games we restarted and the time we lost by that seems like counting prime numbers.

 

[Earthling]

First of all, I really think this event happens much closer to 100% of games than some supporters are saying. I'm thinking you haven't played enough games or paid much attention to this in the past (and it's true I didn't either before getting into MP). It's not rare - the only way to avoid it is by deliberate human player agreement. The AI pops lairs all the time and humans who want to do so can be even quicker. Again, I'd say some are still missing the point that it's not about being a "strategy" where one particular person kills one other person by popping one particular dungeon, which of course couldn't happen that often. It's the fact that the simple numbers add up to out of all the civs, someone is going to get hit by someone else. And I still don't see at all how this adds fun or variability to the game - it's nothing like the edit: Dirge, I knew that which is cool, and like 20x weaker; it's more like if the Avatar of Wrath had a 10% chance of spawning when the AC hit 5.

Secondly, there is not an "option" to this at all - you can't turn on or off big lair spawns. I'd be perfectly happy with such a option, defaulting to no big lair results early on, though again with things like this at some point it must be a hassle for people to write in options for every little thing. But that's acceptable enough to me if someone wants to just make it an option.

 

[cvlowe]

What version are you playing? Because I haven't seen the AI pop dungeons at all, especially the legendary ones like the Pyre or Aifon Isle. Maybe the lairs, because I rarely see those in their territory. The first thing I usually do when getting Open borders with an AI is explore their territory looking for dungeons to explore.

And yes- there is the option to turn them off- "no unique features" and "all unique features" for the legendary ones, and "no lairs" for the normal ones. (might have the wording off since I'm not on my home computer)