Can we have equality without equal material wealth?

[River_Ghost]

even if you take that all as true (i might dispute some of it), you still have to pick at least some constraints for civilization. if you don't, people who are not equal in ways that translate to physical force will pick them for you, and i doubt that produces an outcome that optimizes for what we want as a species overall.

I believe the most important thing, in regards to the topic, is that things do not become so disproportionate that the disenfranchised become a threat to the organism itself (civilization). No matter what world we live in, or have lived in, there is always a percentage of that society that wants something more or wants something different, regardless of its prosperity. My proposal, for those living in a world they are displeased with, is to create a Parallel Society, this is something that should be studied if you are not familiar with the concept. I may create a thread on it, as it is a fascinating topic and a legitimate solution, on a personal basis, to the problems people face with the cultural structure of world.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I believe the most important thing, in regards to the topic, is that things do not become so disproportionate that the disenfranchised become a threat to the organism itself (civilization).

my estimation is that this is a necessary, but insufficient condition. there are lots of configurations that fit this description, and there are some i vastly prefer to live in relative to others.

to some extent, countries function as "parallel societies" today, but in practice the mobility/knowledge/control isn't there to just move between them or turn to nobs to optimize them.

 

[River_Ghost]

but in practice the mobility/knowledge/control isn't there to just move between them or turn to nobs to optimize them.

If everyone could turn the nobs, it would cause a meltdown overnight. The Greeks had a reasonable suggestion, that was never implemented. The Gallipoli, modelled after the Polis, in which those possessing the highest wisdom and education would submit themselves to a rigorous and comprehensive test that would ensure they were balanced between the two extreme ends of the mind; Logic and Emotion. Furthermore it would ensure they possessed the level of understanding and education necessary to do so. They proposed a system in which philosopher kings would rule. However, no system is perfect, beyond corruption, or human fallibility. Given enough time, this system too, may have fallen into corruption. If we are talking about the common man being able to have the reigns of control over the entirety of society, then a Meritocracy is the closest you can come to that. However, practicing this function on a broader scale, for Joe Sixpack to be able to control the shaping of state and national policy is opening the door to disaster. So, we are right back at the beginning, everyone is not equal, they never will be. Personally, I find the notion that all votes are equal to be highly unfair. Example: A man who has a wife, children, owns property, pays taxes, is highly educated, polices his community, donates to charity, stays politically informed, and makes rational decisions. His vote is equal to that of a drug dealer who collects a welfare check, never sees his kids, votes for a politician that tells him what he wants to hear, and spends all his extra money on attire, while debasing his community and causing crime. Is that fair? Is it equal? Should both of their opinions be equally valued?

 

[Birdjaguar]

My proposal, for those living in a world they are displeased with, is to create a Parallel Society,

The GOP is trying to do that in many red states.

 

[River_Ghost]

The GOP is trying to do that in many red states.

At this point, its becoming a necessity. I wouldn't be surprised, if in a few years more or within the decade, things began to balkanize and reform into confederacies.

 

[Birdjaguar]

At this point, its becoming a necessity. I wouldn't be surprised, if in a few years more or within the decade, things began to balkanize and reform into confederacies.

Climate change is like to redirect the US migration patterns of the past 50 years into something new. I expect that trends to move south and west will not survive.

 

[River_Ghost]

Climate change is like to redirect the US migration patterns of the past 50 years into something new. I expect that trends to move south and west will not survive.

They said the same thing 50 years ago. Shore lines are still in the same place, the only thing that's changed is our ecological damage. Humans migrate, we've been migrating longer then we've been fully human, so has every other animal. Human nature will ultimately dictate migration, not legislation, unless hard lines are set and enforced like they are in many foreign countries. Climate change has been happening for over 4 billion years on Earth. See Milankovitch Cycles. Barring catastrophes, climate change happens so slow, it's imperceptive to humans. Earth has spent a great deal of it's history being cold and dry or outright locked in ice. The last time things were this hospitable to human life was 135,000 years ago, it didn't last long. Thanks to multiple impacts in Greenland, North America, and the middle east about 13,000 years ago, coupled with quite a few notable volcanic eruptions along the way, we've gotten to enjoy all the splendors of the Earth for a brief period of time, while spread across it unchecked like a plague. "Scientists" even point to the fact we are supposed to be entering back into an ice age and the planet is being kept artificially warmed by a variety of factors. I'm sure we will run into each other in another thread. This one was supposed to be about 'Muh Equality', we can have fun with Immigration another time.

Fun facts: The Sahara desert was a jungle 8,000 years ago and long before, and there were 4 continents that existed that are now beneath the waves, all of which were inhabited by humans; Doggerland, Beringia, Ancient Oceania, and the Caribbean. People go where the food is or leave when they are forced out.

Don't worry about climate change, or the human race. Short of this planet cracking in half, we aren't going anywhere anytime soon. If anything, mankind IS the extinction level event, not a victim of it.

 

[Narz]

we aren't going anywhere anytime soon

Some of us are.

A bunch of people survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki bug that doesn't make them not tragedies.

If anything, mankind IS the extinction level event, not a victim of it.

We're both.

 

[River_Ghost]

Some of us are.

A bunch of people survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki bug that doesn't make them not tragedies.


We're both.

The only tragedy I see, is what we've done to the only home we have, and all other creation on it. I don't believe anyone, or group, can victimize themselves.
We're all to blame. It makes a nice epitaph.

 

[Samson]

The only tragedy I see, is what we've done to the only home we have, and all other creation on it. I don't believe anyone, or group, can victimize themselves.
We're all to blame. It makes a nice epitaph.

We, as in those posting here, all have a certain amount of culpability. Generally one of the tragedies is that the odds of one suffering from climate change is pretty much inversely proportion to the damage one has done.

 

[Lexicus]

Barring catastrophes

catastrophes like thousands of gigatons of CO2 being burned off into the atmosphere in a geologic eyeblink

 

[El_Machinae]

We have a lot of buffer in the atmosphere. We're capable of safely burning a lot of fossil fuels (especially in comparison to the quality of life they create). The risk is that we're spending this buffer such that we cannot taper our emissions in time. The nuclear scientist needs a heated office to work in, and that requires fossil fuels to create that world. But, if that guy is Ubering donairs, then we're borrowing from the future in ways don't analogize to debt. We're so used to 'borrowing' our way out of crises that we're not really ready for the idea that 'destroying the future' isn't something that fiat borrowing can compensate against.

 

[River_Ghost]

Even creating green energy requires fossil fuels. We don't make solar panels, wind turbines, batteries, etc, off of green energy. You need a variety of environmentally unfriendly resources for melting glass, cultivating plastics, and forging metal and electronic components. When we get right down to it, I don't believe 99% of people that are concerned about climate change care about the Earth in the abstract; that is to say, it's animals, ecology, soil health, oceans, etc. It's clear to me, that they are concerned that sometime within their life they may have to face the consequences of living the way we do. Even then, if given the option to live on a small plot of land, with no electricity, and no running water, they would rather sit ideally by and complain about the climate changing rather then produce for themselves. Even the idea that life can't exist on earth above a certain heat threshold is absurd, during the Jurassic, it was so hot, humans wouldn't have been able to survive and the entire earth, for the most part, was covered in jungle, even the atmosphere was different containing higher levels of Carbon Dioxide than in the present atmosphere. Life finds a way to survive, it'll just change form, and we may not be around to see it.

If someone proposed an international agenda, like they have in the last couple years, the whole "You will own nothing and be Happy." people get scared and pissed off that a standard will be set on how they can live. Sadly, unless radical action is taken, we will run this planet into the ground collectively, for the sake of our standards of living, and then blame politicians and corporations for it, instead of ourselves.

 

[Lexicus]

We have a lot of buffer in the atmosphere. We're capable of safely burning a lot of fossil fuels (especially in comparison to the quality of life they create).

Neither of these statements is necessarily true.

 

[El_Machinae]

Neither of these statements is necessarily true.

They're true, but partially because they have to be. Keep in mind, I don't feel entitled to my footprint, and have been living that way for a long time. I'm the one screaming that current efforts are insufficient and require greater investment.

But the amount of GDP created per unit of oil or natural gas emitted between here and 450 ppm is a very, very large number. We're going to spend it badly, but that doesn't change that it's a very large number. Every person here is going to warm their house into "comfortable" range this winter, and do so thinking that it's justifiable due to the Quality of Life it purchases, despite the harms. It will be a large QoL boost, even.

We should be acting more like it's a crisis than we are. Our entitlement is very large, but some of that waste is from people behaving helplessly because they're told they're helpless.

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

It is impossible to have perfect equality, but it is possible to strive for better equality. So lets do that.

 

[Hygro]

One feature of privilege is implicit knowledge and ability to navigate an environment better. If we give everyone the same stuff, on the level that it changes peoples behaviors to match the new material reality, doesn’t this make those who had prior access the cool ones while the newbs stumble about, creating a social inequality that simple might not exist if different groups are at material lifestyles evolving, bifurcated, at a reasonable pace?

Is not rushing the tech levels of others a cause of its own evils and inequities?

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

Thus we must block all progress until we are equals!

 

[Hygro]

Or respect the process

 

[Terxpahseyton]

This is my take on the very very difficult and complex question of equality. Without the lions eating anyone, though. I always like to emphasize, that civilized people neither eat each other, nor feed on each other in any other.. vampire-like or parasitic form. Symbiosis. That sounds very civilized, to me.

And I absolutely include emotional vampires. No good. Naughty naughty. Nonono. Bad boy. Or girl. Very bad girl. Stop being a witch.

well... some parts can be eaten, I suppose... for a ... I stop...