I thought you could only do one per turn with airports. Maybe I'm remembering that from a previous version.
Can you get more than 1 invitation to SS?
- Thread starter playshogi
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tedhebert
Emperor
no... from memory, there's no limit... haven't done it often but I'm pretty sure
Bibor
Doomsday Machine
Maybe not the best pick for a thread title. Can be interpreted in more than one way
acluewithout
Deity
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[ @bite Can we just make this the the Secret Societies general discussion thread? If not, could we maybe make a more general thread?]
I was quite excited about Secret Societies, but having seen how they play they seem a bit of a mess. The promotions and related mechanics seem really good, and I like the late game buff to Alliances and impact on relationships. But the whole mechanism for triggering a Society and trade offs around having them seem really off.
Specifically:
I really hope Firaxis are open to revisiting these modes a little based on Feedback (@FXS_MisterKevin hint hint). I mean, I really hope so. There are some really good ideas here, they just need just a smidge more polish.
I was quite excited about Secret Societies, but having seen how they play they seem a bit of a mess. The promotions and related mechanics seem really good, and I like the late game buff to Alliances and impact on relationships. But the whole mechanism for triggering a Society and trade offs around having them seem really off.
Specifically:
- Getting a Secret Society. I'm not entirely sold on triggering Secret Societies via Goody Huts etc., but I guess it's okay. But I don't think multiple Civs should be able to trigger each Society that way. It just feels inevitable that you're going to get offers from every Society, and it isn't all that challenging given the triggers are so easy (albeit a bit RNG).
- I think maybe FXS should limit it to one Civ getting a Secret Society via Good Huts etc. Then, anyone else that wants that Society needs to do it via Diplomatic Visibility. That would make getting a Society initially a bit more competitive (because you have a rush to be the first one to get eg Void Singers), and then if you miss out getting a Society that way, you've got incentive to hunt among the other Civs for the one you want and then use Diplo Visibility to get the desired society. Otherwise, the current dynamic is to just keep banging Good Huts or Barbs all game long till you get the society you want, and that's just silly.
- Free Governor Titles. Getting additional free governor titles seems like a terrible idea - there's really just no trade off getting a Society at all, because you don't even have to use up your limited supply of existing Governor Titles. I'm even hearing stories of people getting four free titles! Oh Dear. No free titles, please. Or, if you have free titles, maybe only for the first person to discover the particular society.
- Trade-offs. Already discussed, but there's no real trade offs to Secret Societies, and that's kind of lame. Yeah, there's negative relationship penalties, but that's a very weak negative and only applies to AI Civs. I think there needs to be some sort of more general negative to the Societies that ramps up as you get promotions. It doesn't need to be anything crushing, but just something so you feel like there's some choice. It could be something just as simple as no Alliances with Civs that have a different Secret Society.
- Counters. I think there needs to be some sort of counters to Secret Societies. Currently, it's the same problem we had with Rock Bands, where there's just nothing proactive you can do against them. Again, I don't think we need anything major. But maybe Spy Missions that you can only run against Civs that have a different Secret Society to you; World Congress Resolutions that target Secret Societies; and or Policy Cards that give you additional combat bonuses etc. v Civs with Secret Socieites. I think the benefit of those counters would be players without Societies could use them freely, but so could Civs that have a Society but only against Civs with different Societies. Also, if Secret Societies had some good counters, I think that might even be enough of a "trade-off" by itself. Just a thought.
I really hope Firaxis are open to revisiting these modes a little based on Feedback (@FXS_MisterKevin hint hint). I mean, I really hope so. There are some really good ideas here, they just need just a smidge more polish.
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When they first talked about seeing other Secret Societies based off of visibility I thought choosing one that way was going to be the other option if say the Voidsingers already got taken, so I am on board with this idea.
That being said the hardest one to get first would be the Hermetic Order unless you are very lucky at finding a natural wonder first.
I also agree that whenever you find one I don't think it should go towards another governor title ,especially after you already picked one, because I had curator Pingala by the Medieval Era.
Tigranes
Armenian
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Only if you are playing an optional mode. Most strategy discussions here will still be centered about regular Gathering Storm.
acluewithout
Deity
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@Alexander's Hetaroi I really like the idea of finding Secret Societies with Diplo Visibility - yet another reason to use Diplo Visibility, including sending delegations, trade routes, researching printing press. But the mechanic is basically a dead letter if everyone can just get them via good huts or whatever.
Governor titles for societies need a nerf. I like the idea of the first person to get a society maybe getting one free title, so there's a little more competition to finding them in the early game, but other than that it should require one of your existing titles so you actually have some hard choices and to not inflate the governor title economy more generally.
Governor titles for societies need a nerf. I like the idea of the first person to get a society maybe getting one free title, so there's a little more competition to finding them in the early game, but other than that it should require one of your existing titles so you actually have some hard choices and to not inflate the governor title economy more generally.
While you do get free Governor Titles for each Secret Society you discover, you don't get any more when you reach the next threshold to unlock the next SS ability; you have to spend a title of your own. So even if you get 2 or 3 free titles from discovering societies, you still have to spend 4 to fully level up your SS. So it's not a net positive in titles, but you do get them sooner.
acluewithout
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True, but I still think the free titles are a problem. First, extra titles early is just too powerful. Second, having extra titles to get your secret societies going really undercuts any trade off / interesting decisions. I’m sure it was done so new players could easily dive into the new Mechanic and play with it, but it just makes it too easy.
I’m really not a huge fan of the triggers for secret societies. I get that they were probably chosen to help encourage playing the map, but they feel a bit silly and uninspired. You also just need so little investment to get a secret society.
I’d rather have the trigger for secret societies tied to building Wonders and or recruiting great people, and make which Secret Society you unlock also random. ie you have a random chance of revealing a society if you build a wonder or recruit a great person, and if you succeed, the society revealed is also random. I’d also still limit that Mechanic to one Civ per Society, with everyone else then needing to use Diplo Vision. Overall, it would maybe make secret societies a bit less map dependent, but it would mean you had to invest more to get them and or require you to use the Diplo Visibility Mechanics more.
Hunyadi
Chieftain
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The answer to the original question is yes. I got the Sanguine pact invitation (finally) after clearing my first barbie camp in a new game. I accepted. Soon after I got a Void Singer invitation after clearing a goodie hut. I ignored that one.
Vampires are ok...not that op...they're slow first of all and they do die but basically respawn back home or the vampire castle - with 1 HP. But because they're slow and so low on hp (after dying) their effective usefulness is debatable. Still fun though. They do hit hard.
Maybe the best use is to build the castle as close to the enemy base as possible and then keep going in with one hit at a time. Hit, die, respawn, hit, die, respawn etc.
Vampires are ok...not that op...they're slow first of all and they do die but basically respawn back home or the vampire castle - with 1 HP. But because they're slow and so low on hp (after dying) their effective usefulness is debatable. Still fun though. They do hit hard.
Maybe the best use is to build the castle as close to the enemy base as possible and then keep going in with one hit at a time. Hit, die, respawn, hit, die, respawn etc.
Pfeffersack
Deity
This is only speculation - but since the description explicity mentions that you can "learn about" a society by finding out the Membership of a civ you have met...could that mean that any society you learn about that way is no longer one you can "meet on the map"? Or is knowing about civ X being member of secret society Y one thing and getting the invitation/only the free title (if you are already a member of a different one) another, with the latter requiring you to have diplomatically "secret" visibility on civ X?
EDIT: Got the HO "invalid invitation" + gov. title when discovering a natural wonder (and the 100%-thing doesn't seem to apply in the case here, as it wasn't the first one), even after having met leaders and uncovered them being HO before. So at least the meeting without getting a "secret information level" will not block further gov titles.
EDIT: Got the HO "invalid invitation" + gov. title when discovering a natural wonder (and the 100%-thing doesn't seem to apply in the case here, as it wasn't the first one), even after having met leaders and uncovered them being HO before. So at least the meeting without getting a "secret information level" will not block further gov titles.
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So far I have "learned about" secret societies only by discovering them on the map; civilizations I have met have either praised me or castigated me according to whether or not we join the same society, and upon establishing an embassy I can see in the "likes/dislikes" tab of the diplomacy screen I can see whether they have the same or different society as myself (and several civilizations appear to still have no secret society membership by the late Renaissance). But I have yet to receive a join offer from a secret society via diplomacy, so I'm not sure exactly what it required.
Fully half of the civilizations in my current game (including myself (Ethiopia)) are followers of the Voidsingers. They have chosen well...
Pfeffersack
Deity
The first three civs I met had joined the Voidsingers as well, after that it balanced out a bit more, so that it is now clear that at least all secret societies have their followers. The only other owl I met so far is Matthias Corvinus (hey, ravens...owls...whatever has wings flies for us - unless it is an evil bat of course
) and I like how this adds a bit more pepper in the diplomatic friendship sauce which usually swaps soon through Civ6.
Hungarian vampires are so spot on.
In my current game, Dido is the only Sanguine Pact member... and she's the nemesis on my starting continent that I will eventually need to take out. This should be interesting.
...though, she's been fighting my vassal city-state nearly since the start of the game, and they've sent her Vampires packing so far.
In my current game, Dido is the only Sanguine Pact member... and she's the nemesis on my starting continent that I will eventually need to take out. This should be interesting.
...though, she's been fighting my vassal city-state nearly since the start of the game, and they've sent her Vampires packing so far.
tedhebert
Emperor
I feel going by diplo visibility only after the first one is a bad idea. If I'm playing continents, it might be quite late in the game when I finally meet the last civs on the other landmass... and there's no garantee they would be unfriendly.
personally, I think the current way is good, but you just shouldn't get 4 governor points. You should get only 1 for the one you accept to join (or for the first invitation if it's too complicated to program), and then if you want to upgrade your SS, well you're going to have to find the 3 extra points somewhere else. they gotta stop just trying to make everything too easy !
personally, I think the current way is good, but you just shouldn't get 4 governor points. You should get only 1 for the one you accept to join (or for the first invitation if it's too complicated to program), and then if you want to upgrade your SS, well you're going to have to find the 3 extra points somewhere else. they gotta stop just trying to make everything too easy !
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