JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Duh, well that I mean, that my doctrine means that less of my troops could fight off a force larger (not too much, of course) from yours?
Capto Iugulum: 1920 - 1939
- Thread starter EQandcivfanatic
- Start date
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
In a straight up fight?
Training: Same
Firepower: Federal
Mobility: Federal
Logistics: Federal
Coordination: *NEW* Brazil
So it matters how much Coordination affects things. In a straight up fight with equal training, it would be a tie. (?) Fed Am 1912's main advantage is in mobile campaign warfare with their mobility and logistics, but I feel that this could be undercut by the Brazilian Coordination Advantage.
Not to mention Fed Am 1912 is using 1912 tactics and warfare lessons more or less, while Braz Roy 1923 is 11 years more modern.
Mass: Federal
Training: Same
Firepower: Federal
Mobility: Federal
Logistics: Federal
Coordination: *NEW* Brazil
So it matters how much Coordination affects things. In a straight up fight with equal training, it would be a tie. (?) Fed Am 1912's main advantage is in mobile campaign warfare with their mobility and logistics, but I feel that this could be undercut by the Brazilian Coordination Advantage.
Not to mention Fed Am 1912 is using 1912 tactics and warfare lessons more or less, while Braz Roy 1923 is 11 years more modern.
m.t.cicero
Good Kid
Guangxi votes for Edinburgh, UK
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Yeah, coordination is definitely something I'd put on a new doctrine (if I had the funds or Army Quality to do a decent one).
TheLastJacobite
No Commies
OOC: FYI Blue Bacon, your global ranks are just the Africa, Middle East and Far East stats
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
We have the same training, the only advantages you have would be in firepower, mobility and logistics. Your mass is outdated and my infantry are cheaper. My doctrine is designed for naval operations, coastal campaigns and defense. Yours is designed for sweeping across the Great Plains.
Well, first, the Amagi isn't a glitch in the Matrix. Spain has those designs because Japan (foolishly?) shared said designs with the monarchists who peacefully reunified. If Spain chose to make those designs generic by freely giving them to all the world, he could, much like a person who had access to the tridente did. Let this be a lesson in sharing your designs flagrantly with anyone. You never know what actions may lead to your potential or even current enemies getting access to your weapons. Enjoy.
Let's discuss doctrine, specifically the examples put forward by Terrence up above. In the manner that Terrence has arranged them, it seems irrefutable that the Federal doctrine is by far superior. That would be incorrect. A quick examination of unit costs will demonstrate that the most quickly. This is because the Federal doctrine is obsolete, like any other pre-1920 doctrine. Costs will typically be higher for those, but you may ask, does it really matter if all the other stats are that much higher? The quick answer is no. The one thing I tell everyone who asks my advice on doctrines: tailor your doctrine to your needs. The American Federal Army 1912 was tailored specifically for the needs of pre-Crisis USA.
The high Mobility and Logistics were designed for a cavalry-heavy army geared to fighting in the west or in the wide plains of the interior of Vinland. Rapid response, as it would be for a pre-armored force, both defensively and offensively. The training was high and the mass was low to create a well trained force, which in 1912, was better than most, if not all preexisting military forces. For its time, and as displayed in the American Crisis, the Federal Army doctrine was a superior and useful blueprint for the armies. However, now it is obsolete. Nations using this doctrine (or indeed, any doctrine without Coordination) have a very hard time coordinating with other branches of the military like Air Force and Navy. They'll even have a harder time coordinating within the Army, relying on couriers to deliver messages, and tanks and almost all military units are without radio. While a landlocked, poor nation surrounded by poor nations may not find this that much of an issue, and indeed, an obsolete doctrine can be just as deadly as a new one, all in the right circumstances, anyone seeking to wage a war in modern terms would be hard pressed to fight with an obsolete doctrine. However, don't all of you go out and buy a new one (though that wouldn't be a bad thing either). Some of the older doctrines are still highly effective in the right circumstances, and frankly a lot of you don't have the amount of planes or tanks which would benefit the most from a new doctrine. Similarly, if you have a comfortable geographical position that allows for an easy, planned defense, it's not really a matter of urgency. Remember, and my final word on this, what's important is to have a doctrine that's best suited for where and how you plan to fight. Just adopting someone's doctrine because they have higher numbers is a sure way to bring about disaster.
Let's discuss doctrine, specifically the examples put forward by Terrence up above. In the manner that Terrence has arranged them, it seems irrefutable that the Federal doctrine is by far superior. That would be incorrect. A quick examination of unit costs will demonstrate that the most quickly. This is because the Federal doctrine is obsolete, like any other pre-1920 doctrine. Costs will typically be higher for those, but you may ask, does it really matter if all the other stats are that much higher? The quick answer is no. The one thing I tell everyone who asks my advice on doctrines: tailor your doctrine to your needs. The American Federal Army 1912 was tailored specifically for the needs of pre-Crisis USA.
The high Mobility and Logistics were designed for a cavalry-heavy army geared to fighting in the west or in the wide plains of the interior of Vinland. Rapid response, as it would be for a pre-armored force, both defensively and offensively. The training was high and the mass was low to create a well trained force, which in 1912, was better than most, if not all preexisting military forces. For its time, and as displayed in the American Crisis, the Federal Army doctrine was a superior and useful blueprint for the armies. However, now it is obsolete. Nations using this doctrine (or indeed, any doctrine without Coordination) have a very hard time coordinating with other branches of the military like Air Force and Navy. They'll even have a harder time coordinating within the Army, relying on couriers to deliver messages, and tanks and almost all military units are without radio. While a landlocked, poor nation surrounded by poor nations may not find this that much of an issue, and indeed, an obsolete doctrine can be just as deadly as a new one, all in the right circumstances, anyone seeking to wage a war in modern terms would be hard pressed to fight with an obsolete doctrine. However, don't all of you go out and buy a new one (though that wouldn't be a bad thing either). Some of the older doctrines are still highly effective in the right circumstances, and frankly a lot of you don't have the amount of planes or tanks which would benefit the most from a new doctrine. Similarly, if you have a comfortable geographical position that allows for an easy, planned defense, it's not really a matter of urgency. Remember, and my final word on this, what's important is to have a doctrine that's best suited for where and how you plan to fight. Just adopting someone's doctrine because they have higher numbers is a sure way to bring about disaster.
Blue Bacon 3
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 401
TLJ: Ah yeah, that's my editing habit cropping up again.
JoanK: German Imperial 1922 (15 points) is the best currently existing doctrine, I think, if you can afford the EPs (Danish is a slightly better trained and much cheaper version of it, but without points in logistics, mobility or coordination, so it's mostly very well suited for short-range urban defense and trench warfare but not much else). Russian Imperial 1922 (18 points) is the best if you can afford the MPs (if you can't get Russian then Continental Union Army 1921 (14 points) is 1 point behind on Mass and Training and 2 points on Logistics).
Given Venezuela already has ca. 24% of it's potential military population under arms I'd definitely recommend German Imperial 1922. It's expensive, but you've already got your units, its training is second only to Denmark and it's got 2 points in the rest (with the exception of irregular warfare).
EQ: I'm starting to better understand American Federal Army 1912 now with Terrance's and your description, but what the Successor Wars mostly came to was defensive close-quarters combat in the mountainous forests & swamps (and as we saw the Union at one point got desperate enough to buy and send cheap and highly mobile and trained cavalry into the Appalachians) and cities, where much of the qualitative superiory was annuled by the defensive terrain, and furthermore even in better suited though not optimal (GLR) terrain where the enemy had enough soldiers to create a solid front it led to an extremely expensive EP/MP slugfest where the mobility and training of the AFA1912 could not be brought to bear to deliver a decisive victory. The ATA had a nice year once where they brought the battle from the western tips of the GLR to the eastern tips, but it did not repeat. The EP expenditure ratios I got back then were atrocious for the White Successor States (especially on the Florida front) with the exception of the very costly special ops Tennessee ran up the Mississippi river (though that paid off for them in local intel and the losses were vastly on spec ops costs) and the charge on the temporary capital earlier on, and Freedman 1912 wasn't even one of the good low-cost doctrines - cheap infantry was it's only virtue whatsoever - though the white American successor states all had the MP to sacrifice they were never able to field the required numbers to avoid the Proletarists making up some quality from their quantity.
The American Federal Army would no doubt have been ideal for a heavy knock-out blow against an enemy with less forces in a plains region, but even against an enemy in the form of the Second Union in fairly favorable terrain where the GLR did well in the first year when its numbers fell behind the recruitment of the Second Union and a strong enemy general appeared they were pushed back substantially.
JoanK: German Imperial 1922 (15 points) is the best currently existing doctrine, I think, if you can afford the EPs (Danish is a slightly better trained and much cheaper version of it, but without points in logistics, mobility or coordination, so it's mostly very well suited for short-range urban defense and trench warfare but not much else). Russian Imperial 1922 (18 points) is the best if you can afford the MPs (if you can't get Russian then Continental Union Army 1921 (14 points) is 1 point behind on Mass and Training and 2 points on Logistics).
Given Venezuela already has ca. 24% of it's potential military population under arms I'd definitely recommend German Imperial 1922. It's expensive, but you've already got your units, its training is second only to Denmark and it's got 2 points in the rest (with the exception of irregular warfare).
EQ: I'm starting to better understand American Federal Army 1912 now with Terrance's and your description, but what the Successor Wars mostly came to was defensive close-quarters combat in the mountainous forests & swamps (and as we saw the Union at one point got desperate enough to buy and send cheap and highly mobile and trained cavalry into the Appalachians) and cities, where much of the qualitative superiory was annuled by the defensive terrain, and furthermore even in better suited though not optimal (GLR) terrain where the enemy had enough soldiers to create a solid front it led to an extremely expensive EP/MP slugfest where the mobility and training of the AFA1912 could not be brought to bear to deliver a decisive victory. The ATA had a nice year once where they brought the battle from the western tips of the GLR to the eastern tips, but it did not repeat. The EP expenditure ratios I got back then were atrocious for the White Successor States (especially on the Florida front) with the exception of the very costly special ops Tennessee ran up the Mississippi river (though that paid off for them in local intel and the losses were vastly on spec ops costs) and the charge on the temporary capital earlier on, and Freedman 1912 wasn't even one of the good low-cost doctrines - cheap infantry was it's only virtue whatsoever - though the white American successor states all had the MP to sacrifice they were never able to field the required numbers to avoid the Proletarists making up some quality from their quantity.
The American Federal Army would no doubt have been ideal for a heavy knock-out blow against an enemy with less forces in a plains region, but even against an enemy in the form of the Second Union in fairly favorable terrain where the GLR did well in the first year when its numbers fell behind the recruitment of the Second Union and a strong enemy general appeared they were pushed back substantially.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
It was NPC Venezuela who took this doctrine, not me!
m.t.cicero
Good Kid
Charles Jiang was exhausted. A parliamentarian from the Zhōngwén Fùxīng Dǎng, the Chinese Restoration Party, he had just finished moving into his new penthouse in Xinjing’s posh Zeng Zhang District. The city was truly all he had heard it would be. Its great Eight Boulevards were wide enough for four lanes of the new automobiles owned by Xinjing’s rich and famous, in addition to the massive crowds of pedestrians in this booming Sino-British city. Four boulevards radiated in the cardinal directions from the Royal Palace in the center of the city, while the others ran in between them.
Here Guangxi’s Chinese heritage was obvious; eight is an auspicious number and the streets are all named for the greatest Qing emperors, rulers from times long past, times before China’s honor had been stained and ruined beyond recognition. This is why Charles was a member of the Chinese Restoration Party, why he longed for a unified and strong China. However he could not deny that in Guangxi, and especially Xinjing, fusion of British and Chinese culture had already taken place on a massive scale, a fusion which would in any case leave an indelible mark on the culture of the region. As he walked down Jiaqing Boulevard into the Guang Mu District, Charles mused at the preponderance of English signs in the markets. Most street vendors called out in English, or more accurately a broken mix of English and Chinese words and grammar. “Guanglish” was the popular term for the dialect, the result of years of British colonialism and the failure to master English by the many students who could not afford to complete their schooling.
Entering Guang Mu, Charles spotted St. Andrew’s Cathedral, the seat of the Anglican Church of Guangxi. As part of the Anglicization of the Dominion, both British and British-sympathetic Chinese had enthusiastically begun to proselytize throughout Guangxi. Though the conversion of the Qing to Anglican Christianity had lent the faith some limited credibility among the people, the success of Christian missionaries in Guangxi was mixed at best. Ancestor veneration remained ubiquitous in the Dominion, coexisting with Christianity everywhere, with even the King all but openly embracing the practice. Charles himself was a member of the Church, in part because being a member of the Church was prerequisite to being a Member of Parliament. Xinjing was in fact the first city in all of China where the majority of places of worship were Christian churches, a point of pride for the administrators of the city.
Charles could tell that this romantic, Western façade could not go unopposed forever. The recent success of the Red Army had proven that. The emergence of the Red Army in Guangxi had split the Chinese Restoration Party; radicals embraced these Proletarist insurgents, while most conservative nationalists opposed the creation of a Proletarist state in China, even if it meant independence. Either way, Charles held hope that one day his nation would be free again, and that one day he would be called by the name his parents gave to him, his Chinese name: Jiang Jieshi.
OOC: Hopefully I didn't make any grievous mistakes with regards to Chinese culture this time. I wanted to take a look at this experiment in Anglo-Chinese fusion in case it is brought crashing down anytime soon.
Edit: Thanks Bair!
Here Guangxi’s Chinese heritage was obvious; eight is an auspicious number and the streets are all named for the greatest Qing emperors, rulers from times long past, times before China’s honor had been stained and ruined beyond recognition. This is why Charles was a member of the Chinese Restoration Party, why he longed for a unified and strong China. However he could not deny that in Guangxi, and especially Xinjing, fusion of British and Chinese culture had already taken place on a massive scale, a fusion which would in any case leave an indelible mark on the culture of the region. As he walked down Jiaqing Boulevard into the Guang Mu District, Charles mused at the preponderance of English signs in the markets. Most street vendors called out in English, or more accurately a broken mix of English and Chinese words and grammar. “Guanglish” was the popular term for the dialect, the result of years of British colonialism and the failure to master English by the many students who could not afford to complete their schooling.
Entering Guang Mu, Charles spotted St. Andrew’s Cathedral, the seat of the Anglican Church of Guangxi. As part of the Anglicization of the Dominion, both British and British-sympathetic Chinese had enthusiastically begun to proselytize throughout Guangxi. Though the conversion of the Qing to Anglican Christianity had lent the faith some limited credibility among the people, the success of Christian missionaries in Guangxi was mixed at best. Ancestor veneration remained ubiquitous in the Dominion, coexisting with Christianity everywhere, with even the King all but openly embracing the practice. Charles himself was a member of the Church, in part because being a member of the Church was prerequisite to being a Member of Parliament. Xinjing was in fact the first city in all of China where the majority of places of worship were Christian churches, a point of pride for the administrators of the city.
Charles could tell that this romantic, Western façade could not go unopposed forever. The recent success of the Red Army had proven that. The emergence of the Red Army in Guangxi had split the Chinese Restoration Party; radicals embraced these Proletarist insurgents, while most conservative nationalists opposed the creation of a Proletarist state in China, even if it meant independence. Either way, Charles held hope that one day his nation would be free again, and that one day he would be called by the name his parents gave to him, his Chinese name: Jiang Jieshi.
OOC: Hopefully I didn't make any grievous mistakes with regards to Chinese culture this time. I wanted to take a look at this experiment in Anglo-Chinese fusion in case it is brought crashing down anytime soon.
Edit: Thanks Bair!
Bair_the_Normal
転輪聖王
Just one little thing. "Zhōngguó Fùxīng Dǎng" means China Restoration Party. Instead of "Guó", you want "Wén" to make it literally "Chinese Restoration Party".
Yeah, for me American Federal Doctrine is just beginning (Of course, I wanted Free American Army, and was rather miffed when I abruptly could no longer adopt it) to show its age. It was designed at a time when my main concern was fighting off a vast American invasion across a wide front (ironically, it was made by the same people I'd expected to fight, with the very same concerns in mind). It served excellently throughout the 1910s, but it has shown difficulties at fighting on the Pacific Coast, where its high mobility and cavalry are less useful, and greater concentrated firepower could be put to better use. Now that I am beginning to use aircraft, build up a modest fleet (as opposed to the utterly obsolete navy I possessed in 1910) and increasingly replace my cavalry with new brigades of my Lodjur-modell light Stridpansar, a newer doctrine is likely to prove itself of greater use.
At any rate, I'm finding myself confused by the values of scores, for both vehicle designs and doctrines.
If Vinland, with its 8 army quality, were to design a doctrine, I might go for:
Mass: 1
Training: 2
Firepower: 2
Mobility: 2
Logistics: 0
Coordination: 1
A roughly equivalent doctrine designed by the 14-quality United States might be:
Mass: 1
Training: 3
Firepower: 4
Mobility: 3
Logistics: 1
Coordination: 2
Numerically, the United States' doctrine would be better in almost every way. However, as the Vinlandic doctrine was designed with Vinland's current forces in mind, would it in fact be better in some respects?
At any rate, I'm finding myself confused by the values of scores, for both vehicle designs and doctrines.
If Vinland, with its 8 army quality, were to design a doctrine, I might go for:
Mass: 1
Training: 2
Firepower: 2
Mobility: 2
Logistics: 0
Coordination: 1
A roughly equivalent doctrine designed by the 14-quality United States might be:
Mass: 1
Training: 3
Firepower: 4
Mobility: 3
Logistics: 1
Coordination: 2
Numerically, the United States' doctrine would be better in almost every way. However, as the Vinlandic doctrine was designed with Vinland's current forces in mind, would it in fact be better in some respects?
christos200
Never tell me the odds
My doctrine (British Royal Army 1890) is the best.
Lord of Elves
Suede-Denim Secret Police
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2009
- Messages
- 6,976
Fatherland army is best army.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Dallas Militia is the best army.
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Hæren 1922 is best army. Minmaxed specifically for the only kind of war Denmark will ever fight - desperate cowering in trenches while a far larger and superior army rans roughshod over everything outside the trench.
Lord of Elves
Suede-Denim Secret Police
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2009
- Messages
- 6,976
@EQ, I am also waiting on a PM before sending orders.
@spryllino: reply sent. Don't expect further response, I have 40 "New" messages to sort through.
@Lord of Elves: But the PM your waiting on isn't from me, cause if it was, you'd have sent a PM clearly labelled "Question." Since you're waiting on someone else:
No more order revisions accepted beyond this point. Will still take NEW sets of orders. Good news though, you'll likely have 12-20 hours to complete them, as I've decided to complete my Fallout NES's update first to give latecomers a bit of a chance for this.
@Lord of Elves: But the PM your waiting on isn't from me, cause if it was, you'd have sent a PM clearly labelled "Question." Since you're waiting on someone else:
No more order revisions accepted beyond this point. Will still take NEW sets of orders. Good news though, you'll likely have 12-20 hours to complete them, as I've decided to complete my Fallout NES's update first to give latecomers a bit of a chance for this.
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
Won't be able to get 'em in until tomorrow morning, just a heads up.
Similar threads
