Carthage

[Legen]

EIC gives 1 extra Trade Route. So Cothon gives 1 additional TR from what every other civ gives.

I've double-checked the civilopedia, the EIC is stated to give no bonus trade route. Carthage should have 2 bonus routes over a generic civ.

Oddly, the Civilopedia also shows the EIC giving a +25% resource diversity modifier on the detailed (technical) info, just like the Great Cothon. Likely worth checking in a non-Carthage game next time anyone builds it.

So, to fix the problem with frontloading, you want to frontload the civ even more?

My opinion is that Carthage isn't as frontloaded as people make it after those two patches, nor I see the frontloaded part as an issue. Carthage has some long term appeal for those that enjoy economic civs, and not every civ needs to have uniques distributed throughout the ages.

Also, you want to give Carthage 4 free TRs at the same tech every other civ gets their 2nd?

That implies that the UB is actually very strong, but currently not in a tech that lets you make the best use of its strengths. Which is the point I want to make with the move to an earlier tech.

What I mainly want is for the Great Cothon to not compete with the many techs in the late Classical that unlock strong World Wonders, as I consider that competition what makes the UB feel lackluster. I chose Sailing because Ziad was mentioning how this tech is currently unattractive, addressing two points in one go.

I think you're making an even stronger argument for Carthage getting free Harbors than @Ziad did.

I'm ok with harbors instead of lighthouses for instant city connections, as it used to be. Either is fine by me.

 

[CrazyG]

What I mainly want is for the Great Cothon to not compete with the many techs in the late Classical that unlock strong World Wonders, as I consider that competition what makes the UB feel lackluster. I chose Sailing because Ziad was mentioning how this tech is currently unattractive, addressing two points in one go.

I think currency is a pretty good tech. I want villages as Carthage for the culture and Ankor Wat is a solid wonder.

 

[pineappledan]

I've double-checked the civilopedia, the EIC is stated to give no bonus trade route. Carthage should have 2 bonus routes over a generic civ.

You are right. Previous versions had EIC giving 1 TR. This must have been a ninja edit, or something I missed in patch notes.

That implies that the UB is actually very strong, but currently not in a tech that lets you make the best use of its strengths. Which is the point I want to make with the move to an earlier tech.

The strongest aspect of this wonder is that it comes 2 techs earlier. I don't support moving it 3 techs earlier; that could do some damage to balancing

What I mainly want is for the Great Cothon to not compete with the many techs in the late Classical that unlock strong World Wonders, as I consider that competition what makes the UB feel lackluster. I chose Sailing because Ziad was mentioning how this tech is currently unattractive, addressing two points in one go.

Currency is a good tech with a good wonder.

 

[Ziad]

My opinion is that Carthage isn't as frontloaded as people make it after those two patches, nor I see the frontloaded part as an issue. Carthage has some long term appeal for those that enjoy economic civs, and not every civ needs to have uniques distributed throughout the ages.

I don't see how the patches made them less frontloaded. Most of the Carthage's uniques are still exhausted by the mid-Classical. They just lowered their potential ceiling, which was a good thing as they were arguably overpowered. Settling a few cities a couple of turns later is arguably just going to make their bonuses feel worse, so the issue is exacerbated actually.

Carthage is good for fun expansionism in the early game and then sitting back and enjoying the fruits of your early game era pay off. I love that myself. It's one reason I play Carthage a lot. I'd like to think that has given me some insight on their faults.

They just have nothing about them that says Carthage after that except very minor bonuses on trader routes. There is not a single other civilization in VP that comes out that way and it's a little jarring.

And yeah it might be minor, but Carthage did take a lot of thematic hits over the years. It's always weird to actively avoid Sailing and Great Lighthouse.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

I don't see how the patches made them less frontloaded. Most of the Carthage's uniques are still exhausted by the mid-Classical. They just lowered their potential ceiling, which was a good thing as they were arguably overpowered. Settling a few cities a couple of turns later is arguably just going to make their bonuses feel worse, so the issue is exacerbated actually.

Carthage is good for fun expansionism in the early game and then sitting back and enjoying the fruits of your early game era pay off. I love that myself. It's one reason I play Carthage a lot. I'd like to think that has given me some insight on their faults.

They just have nothing about them that says Carthage after that except very minor bonuses on trader routes. There is not a single other civilization in VP that comes out that way and it's a little jarring.

And yeah it might be minor, but Carthage did take a lot of thematic hits over the years. It's always weird to actively avoid Sailing and Great Lighthouse.

I remember a really cool game with Carthage a long time ago that felt very Cartagey all the way. After the typical early expansion, I didn't know really where to go and kind of just tried to get the most out of ETR while vassaling those who didn't want to trade nicely and who attacked me instead. Just playing a wide generalist trader empire, progress-statecraft-industry-freedom. Because wide freedom is a bit unusual, it was one of the most immersive runs I had, it felt quite thematic in the late game. That was an economic victory if there was one, maximizing money without specific victory plan, it ended in cultural victory unadvertedly but could have been whatever victory type.

It relied a lot on ETR + draft registration which was changed recently iirc (a bit sad, ETR-based freedom domination shouldn't be discouraged), and maybe I just maximized ETR without really knowing if the UA was worth it. Maybe other civs can play the wide trade empire (haven't tried with netherlands or morocco), but it felt quite unique to me. I don't know, maybe the ETR part of the UA could be tweaked, buffing the positive modifier but removing the advantage for negative multiplier. So you still spend the whole game greedily looking for city locations with high resource diversity and conquering those if need be.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Quinquereme loses heavy assault on upgrade but reconnaissance carries on, i think this is the opposite of what's intended, right?

 

[chicorbeef]

Heavy Assault was added later on, reconnaissance was always carried on. I think it's intended.

 

[Agiwan]

I think Heavy Assault should carry over, it is not that strong and it always feels bad when a unique promotion doesn't carry over. Excpecialy with really early unit so we can't spam them. Futhermore melee ships can only hit cities and other boat while, for exemple, range ship can also hit Land unit.

 

[Hinin]

A UA bonus that could be interesting for Carthage in the long run while still having an effect in the early game (where most of the power spike should be) would be something related to buying units (something the 4UC mod already helps with) : either removing building requirements for buying units (so that you can more easily create your army of mercenaries in you secondary cities if needed) and/or allowing Settling Units to be bought, although at a price scaling with your number of cities and with the same pop requirement (giving that feel of trading counters created at a rapid pace). Later into the game, both would give good gold sinks once the other bonus wear off a bit.

 

[DeAnno]

Even if Carthage's overpowered UA is nerfed, I don't want to go in the direction of a sink. As it is now, a lot of Civs have effective Sinks: Babylon and Austria are two examples I can think of right away. Carthage is unique as one of the only civs with a glut, especially in the earlygame where you're kind of deciding what luxurious stuff to spend it on. Carthage is one of the only civs with a practical worker opening, and I'd like to avoid losing that uniqueness.

 

[Hinin]

Even if Carthage's overpowered UA is nerfed, I don't want to go in the direction of a sink. As it is now, a lot of Civs have effective Sinks: Babylon and Austria are two examples I can think of right away. Carthage is unique as one of the only civs with a glut, especially in the earlygame where you're kind of deciding what luxurious stuff to spend it on. Carthage is one of the only civs with a practical worker opening, and I'd like to avoid losing that uniqueness.

I wouldn't nerf the UA, just add to it. To me, this civ works well and has its strengths and weaknesses. I just wanted to add more uniqueness to its playstyle later into the game, without overbuffing the civ, because the civ currently loses a lot of it after the classical era.

 

[DeAnno]

Oh wow, any kind of buff would surprise me. I rank Carthage in the current top tier of civs with Songhai, Netherlands, Brazil, maybe a couple others.

 

[Hinin]

Oh wow, any kind of buff would surprise me. I rank Carthage in the current top tier of civs with Songhai, Netherlands, Brazil, maybe a couple others.

To me, Carthage is powerful but far less oppressive than Songhai (for which I think a true nerf is required) : its playstyle seems overpowering at first, but it fall off later. My problem with the kit doesn't lie in its power spike and later weakness, but how we pass from a hyperactive playstyle early to something without much interactivity later on (because the bonuses from the UA become unnoticeable) : it's not a matter of power, but of design. Removing building requirements for buying units later would preserve that unique feel for the civ later without making it more powerful (buying a unit in a city without any military building will usually mean it will have no bonus experience, which balance things out in the end).

As for the "Can buy Settling Units with Gold" part, maybe locking it behind the Great Cothon would be the best way to implement it ? It would remove the problem of a possible settler snowballing very early into the game, and give more uniqueness to the UNW, which currently lacks any impressive or unique element to it (doesn't mean it isn't powerful, once again).

 

[Legen]

A UA bonus that could be interesting for Carthage in the long run while still having an effect in the early game (where most of the power spike should be) would be something related to buying units (something the 4UC mod already helps with) : either removing building requirements for buying units (so that you can more easily create your army of mercenaries in you secondary cities if needed) and/or allowing Settling Units to be bought, although at a price scaling with your number of cities and with the same pop requirement (giving that feel of trading counters created at a rapid pace). Later into the game, both would give good gold sinks once the other bonus wear off a bit.

As suggested, I don't think it would help that much in the later game. Carthage tends to have surplus gold and pushes you toward trade-oriented policies, so chances are that the civ can afford investing in the military buildings anyway.

My suggestion along the lines of your idea would be to give Carthage something related to purchasing naval units, like full experience on purchase. The civ always needs a strong navy due to the tendency to settle on the coast and the need to patrol naval trade routes. Moreover, navies allow for a lot of power projection, which lets Carthage's playstyle remain active once the rest of their uniques fall off.

 

[Hinin]

As suggested, I don't think it would help that much in the later game. Carthage tends to have surplus gold and pushes you toward trade-oriented policies, so chances are that the civ can afford investing in the military buildings anyway.

My suggestion along the lines of your idea would be to give Carthage something related to purchasing naval units, like full experience on purchase. The civ always needs a strong navy due to the tendency to settle on the coast and the need to patrol naval trade routes. Moreover, navies allow for a lot of power projection, which lets Carthage's playstyle remain active once the rest of their uniques fall off.

The problem if we go the "no malus xp" route (or the "no cooldown when buying ships" route) is that we overlap quite a bit with the Spanish UA (buying ships with faith doesn't provoke an xp malus or a cooldown). There is also not much point in making Carthaginese naval unit have no building requirement : at least in the version present in the pineappledan's tweak mod, which is always a good first place to look for possible future reworks, the Free Lighthouse has been replaced by a free Harbour, which is the main building requirement for a majority of naval unit throughout the game (he did this to make the Sailing tech, currently useless for Carthage, something truly valuable, while preserving the city connection and synergy with the Great Cothon).

Now, what to do with these naval units ? We accept the overlap with Spain and make so that there is no cooldown or xp loss ?

 

[Legen]

The "no malus xp" was just an example, but the concern of similarity with Spain is fitting. Another possibility I can think of, gaining Great Admiral points when purchasing a naval unit with gold. Or maybe Great Merchant points.

 

[Hinin]

The "no malus xp" was just an example, but the concern of similarity with Spain is fitting. Another possibility I can think of gaining Great Admiral points when purchasing a naval unit with gold. Or maybe Great Merchant points.

I think the GAdmiral part would indeed be interesting : there is currently almost no civ with a focus on GAdmiral (except Portugal and the Brittany civ mod). Plus, with 4UC giving Carthage a unique GGeneral / GAdmiral hybride, going that direction seems logical (all the other civs with a unique war GP have some way to gain it more easily). Finally, since Carthage likes to expand a lot, giving it a way to generate more happiness means a more solid foundation later into the game.

However, we should keep the amount of GAdm. points per naval unit bought on the lower side (but scaling with the production cost).

 

[pineappledan]

I still like Cokoliwek's idea of a bonus for connecting luxury resources.

at 50 gold for connecting luxuries, it would be slower and probably less gold on average, so it would be a slight nerf from the city settle gold, which is good, because the switch to free harbours instead of lighthouses makes Carthage way stronger.

 

[Noob Fanboy]

Harbor is a medieval era building, quite unthematic for Carthage. I don't really see a need to change Carthage as it is now, it's a civilization with an early power spike that falls off later (with the exception of late pioneer founding), I don't see anything bad with a design like that

 

[Ziad]

Harbors existed as early if not earlier than Lighthouses. The fact that it's a medieval era building is just a game mechanic. Base Civ5 gives Carthage free Harbors and it made sense because Phoenicia/Carthage was known for its harbors. IIRC, the change to Lighthouse was done to preserve the free connections when that change was made.

I discussed the possibility a year ago, but I ended up just doing it myself for my own games. I replaced the free lighthouse with a free harbor.

Overall, from multiple games, I didn't feel it afforded Carthage any tangible advantage in terms of power.

• Harbors provide food to tiles but don't provide gold unless there's a sea resource which also provides +1 production. It's a nice tradeoff cause you both care less about not working water tiles if you don't have a resource, but you feel encouraged about working sea tiles when you do
• Harbors don't have instant connections, but now I actually look forward to research Sailing first to build the Lighthouses (thematic!).
• You trade the early snowball for a delayed power spike with really strong coastal cities, pushing the power spike to the Classical Era (yay also thematic). The Great Cothon benefits are unlocked around that time. You get the +3 production when it's actually relevant.
• You actually don't feel bad for building the Great Lighthouse, which has appropriate buffs for Carthage's paradigm, by accepting the effective production "loss" given by your UA.
• The bonus production to naval units actually felt relevant at that stage of the game. By the time you build Harbors in base VP you're just buying everything anyway. I shifted my focus to building naval units and purchasing land units (yay thematic)
  
• The bonus range to trade routes also felt appropriate for the civilization. If anything this was the best part of the whole thing. Rushing Sailing for sea trade routes and Great Cothon's extra trade routes actually felt very immediately impactful.
• I actually feel I want to choose between Authority and Progress now rather than only picking Authority if I feel I have no other choice.
• With this change, the impact of the uniques lasts all the way til late medieval, rather than abruptly falling off a cliff at early Classical.
  .

Ultimately the delays ended up somewhat muting the benefits of the UB change while removing a significant portion of the awkwardness that I always felt while playing Carthage. The only real issue I saw was the insane amount of free . I never actually reached the limit and it could be effectively nerfed for Carthage til the Harbor tech is unlocked.

And honestly as an actual developer solution... can also quite literally just give them the Cothon as a unique Harbor. It's not like the Great Cothon does anything mind-shattering on its own. The buffs it provides can be thrown in as tech unlocks to the civ/buildings, to ultimately surpass the default harbor.

Honestly just looking at base Carthage, it's comparatively uninspired for a VP civ. I feel it's only been tolerated because of how OP it can be in the right situations, which admittedly is why I enjoy it as well. The early game is my favorite part and I love coastal gameplay.

Still, I think changes can be made. Spain's on-settle bonus is much more interesting now. I do like the luxury idea posted above. All good. For now I'll just continue the swap for myself, but I thought I'd share an update.