Have you gotten to the point of building any cathedrals?
Catholicism, Orthodoxy and the Apostolic Palace
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
I have - last two games as Byzantium, I built my first cathedral in Constantinople and then in Athens but nothing either time.
(Another oddity: one time I rolled a 3000BC Byzantine start where my state religion was Judaism, which was ... interesting.)
(Another oddity: one time I rolled a 3000BC Byzantine start where my state religion was Judaism, which was ... interesting.)
Alright, so a condition I forgot existed is that the owner of the Orthodox holy city cannot found Catholicism by building a cathedral. So that might have been the issue.
But then again I'm currently running some test games and Catholicism should have been founded through this because enough buildings have been built and I don't think they could have all been by the same civ.
But then again I'm currently running some test games and Catholicism should have been founded through this because enough buildings have been built and I don't think they could have all been by the same civ.
Whatever you changed certainly seems to have worked: in my most recent game, Greece founded Orthodoxy (but kept Judaism as state religion) and Catholicism was founded in Celtic Burdigala about two turns later. Is it intended to be founded by a minor civ?
This is the first feedback of the mechanism.
Unfortunately I'm unhappy with the result. I was playing as Rome and run pantheon.
Orthodoxy was autofounded before I conquer Jerusalem and Catholicism was founded by me some turns later.
I propose these changes:
*If Rome is alive, no autofounding for Orthodoxy. Rome and Greece will beeline Theology, or Byzantium will found it on spawn.
*If both Rome and Greece are collapsed let Byzantium spawn and found Orthodoxy.
So Orthodoxy will be founded by 320AD.
*Catholicism can be founded only by the first mechanism, by building Cathedral.
*Before Catholicism, all catholic civs try to build the Cathedral.
So Catholicism will be founded by some euro.
Unfortunately I'm unhappy with the result. I was playing as Rome and run pantheon.
Orthodoxy was autofounded before I conquer Jerusalem and Catholicism was founded by me some turns later.
I propose these changes:
*If Rome is alive, no autofounding for Orthodoxy. Rome and Greece will beeline Theology, or Byzantium will found it on spawn.
*If both Rome and Greece are collapsed let Byzantium spawn and found Orthodoxy.
So Orthodoxy will be founded by 320AD.
*Catholicism can be founded only by the first mechanism, by building Cathedral.
*Before Catholicism, all catholic civs try to build the Cathedral.
So Catholicism will be founded by some euro.
Force44
King
What is the problem you are trying to fix with these suggestions?
Temüjin VIII
Fluyts, Grand Vizier of Your Mind
I don't understand. Orthodoxy must be founded by around 70 AD. Why wait for the Byzantines to spawn to found it? Also, it affects Roman gameplay significantly afaik.
Founding Orthodoxy before discovering Theology. Founding Catholicism as Rome while being pagan. Just try to play a roman game.
No it shouldn't. If it is autofounded in 70AD then it will alway be autofounded.
Christianity started to get a formal form in first ecumenical council. Before then there were many different forms and many of them like manichaeism, mithridatism and so on were syncretic.
EDIT: Moreover Theology is a medieval tech. Middle ages started in 330AD (eastern Europe) and 450AD (western Europe). So Orthodoxy should be founded around this time, not 70AD.
Temüjin VIII
Fluyts, Grand Vizier of Your Mind
If I'm correct, the current auto-found code for Orthodoxy is around 70 AD, with a random deviation of maybe 3-5 turns?
I think the main reason why Orthodoxy is assigned to Theology is to prevent civs from founding it prematurely through tech discovery. If you want to give the civs a chance to found it through tech discovery, then maybe perhaps we could move it to some earlier tech. But since historically Christianity originated in the Palestine region (and it's indie by founding time in ~60% of games), then I guess having it autofounded looks much more accurate.
Speaking of the formal form, I think the founding dates of the religions are based on the actual "birth" and initial spread of the beliefs, ideologies and tenets of the religion instead of when it took its first formal form. (Not sure if I phrased that right but I hope you got what I meant)
Speaking of the formal form, I think the founding dates of the religions are based on the actual "birth" and initial spread of the beliefs, ideologies and tenets of the religion instead of when it took its first formal form. (Not sure if I phrased that right but I hope you got what I meant)
This seems to be the norm but it makes early christian gameplay somewhat unpleasant, at least to me.
I always wanted to found Theology as Rome nor because I beelined it neither because I spawned great priests.
Moreover, it can solve the Ethiopian 1st goal problem. If human player is Ethiopia then autfounding is postponed. Making 320~AD the date of autofounding can solve this problem too.
Third, seeing pagan Rome founding catholicism is wrong. Pagan Rome means we run the expulsion period. The last thing christians would think under pressure would be their dogmatic differences.
And in final analysis I think the main problem is trying to enforce the founding of religion in a specific period. Let it be like all other religions, by discovering Theology. Just make the appropriate civs (Rome, Greece) beeline it.
Force44
King
Why are these things problems?
Why shouldn't Orthodoxy be discovered before theology in your opionion?
And what do you think is the reason (are the merits) for making it possible to be founded before theology (despite your objections)? (in other words: What do you think is the ambition for which allowing orthodoxy to be discovered before theology is the implementation?)
Why should a Roman pagan society not be allowed to found Catholicism? (is this due to Paganism or due to Romanism?)
And what defines a Roman game? (What should happen in every Roman game and what should never happen in a Roman game? (And why?))
You appear to have certain expectations about what a Roman game of DoC should look like.
DoC appears to accomodate some of them and others not.
It is very hard to grasp those expectations without you sharing them.
Why should I expect to found Orthodoxy as Rome, given I have to be the first to discover Theology? I think it's self evident. If you have to be the first to discover a tech you expect to be the first to found this religion.
And when Rome runs paganism it represents the suppression of early christianity. It is a period that united christians instead of dividing them.
And again, just run a game as Rome.
TIL Christianity first appeared in the 4th century.
Force44
King
Fair enough I suppose.
To be perfectly honest though, I was hoping you were hinting at key events for civilizations (situations that happen (or never happen) in the game that define a civilization as much as UB's, UU's and UP's) but it appears you are looking for reinforcement of your imagination (instead).
more specifically:
I disagree. I don't think there should be a religion that gets founded by the Koreans because they have to be the first to discover Printing Press (for their UHV).citis said:
I think the suppression of early Christianity isn't represented by paganism at all. (Romans can be pagan before Christianity)citis said:
This is just no answer to my question. If you don't understand a specific part of my question, then tell me so and ask me to explain. I will strive to do the polite thing by answering your questions to the best of my abilities.citis said:
You have understood nothing. That's why I propose to you to you to play a game as Rome in order to understand.
I politely refer to you very specific historical events like that middle ages begun in 330-470AD, council of Nicaea was around 320AD, that during the expulsion period christianity was united and not divided. Are all these my imagination?
Instead of making personal attacks like "you try to reinforce your imagination", play a game as Rome, study their history and their correlation with christianity and then we can speak, and please be polite.
Remember that you write lines like these when you complain about personal attacks from others as soon as anyone engages critically with your posts.
