Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

What y'all are proposing is interesting and I'm not one who should get in the way if you're seeking to attempt to include it... however do know that through the Nomadic system on the books and an inventory mechanism, as well as some shipping unit purpose changes, there are some ideas as to how to address this that have been in planning for a bit - an alternative system option may be good to check it against for variations of fun and player transparency and how intuitive they are. I'm not following every concept being floated here because I'm a little distant from the modding picture at this moment but it sounds like legit planning concepts anyhow.
 
Oooooh, sounds very intriguing.

Thanks :)

Expanding this system to other types of buildings could be great too.

Well, theoretically, this should apply to all network structures – transport, trade, information, etc. At the same time, by the information network, I naturally mean not only the Internet, but also mail, telephone, telegraph.
At the same time, for example, fairs "built up" over local markets are a whole epoch in the development of early capitalism.
On the other hand, the Metcalf rule is the perfect embodiment of the "snowball" mechanics, which is undesirable in principle. Therefore, the positive scale effect should be balanced by the negative ones. The most obvious option is an increase in infectious morbidity when using trade and transport facilities.

Now, what may be considered a superharbor in ancient Rome would not be a superharbor today-which could be done by obsolence? In a way, it would prevent a city from being a super naval base for the rest of the game. It would give a chance for other civs to reinvent themselves in new eras.

Well, every new generation of harbors should be accompanied by a new generation of superhavans.

Now, the thing about nomads:

Looking ahead, I will say that I completely agree with your idea, but terrible boredom requires arguing about motivation. In short, I have nothing to do right now.

When there were nomadic empires, it was usually do that where the plains were.

This is not quite true.

1. The traditional "centers of power" of the nomads existed where there were plains, but not only. For example, for the creators of the Turkic Khaganate and the Mongols, this is the vicinity of the Khangai Mountains. At the same time, the starting point for the expansion of the Turks of the Khaganate is Altai.
The most powerful and organized states on the territory of present-day Kazakhstan were located not on the vast northern plain, but in the Semirechye, near the Tien Shan Mountains.
The reasons are quite banal. Mountains
A). this is a diverse climate, not only depending on the height, but also on the position of the slopes (north/ south). As a result, nomads living nearby can feed cattle all year round, instead of huge movements in latitude "following grass and water." At the same time, long migrations are unavoidable costs. And problems with mobilization.
B). in most cases, this is just water (the most important factor for a cattle breeder). Plus fish glue is necessary for compound bows.
C). and finally, nomads need... a forest. Among other things, wood is a material for bows and arrows, charcoal is fuel for smelters and blacksmiths. In general, mountains are what the nomadic military–industrial complex works around.

2. Any large nomadic state in Mongolia almost automatically included forest zones in the north and east. At the same time, the northern Mongols (Buryats) simply live around Lake Baikal. Meanwhile, the territory of Buryatia is even now 83% forest, and to a large extent – mountain forest.

3. The captured agricultural territories at the same time included not only a trivial forest. Southern China is a tropical forest, and on an area comparable to Mongolia itself.

Also for migrations, nomads would migrate from one set of plains to the next set of plains.

The nuance is that in this case we are still not talking about migrations of peoples, but about the movements of relatively compact armies. At the same time, even in the case of tribal migrations, everything is not so clear.

In fact, it was very important for a nomadic army to not make their seasonal camp in area where there no plains or their horses would die.


In fact, in winter it is cold and regularly hungry in the steppe, nomads lose a lot of horses and livestock. But if you "set up a seasonal camp" with the conquered farmers, everything looks much nicer. As a result, this is a fairly ordinary life hack.

In fact, an agrarian society, would be better able to keep an army in a forest year long through supply chains vs a nomadic army, which has to always be on the move so that their horses can eat. I

The fact is that the horses of nomads can just as well eat the stocks of farmers. Which, by the way, also contain draft cattle. Or there are no stocks yet: even a field that has not been harvested is a great place for grazing.
In general, everything ultimately depends on the concentration of nomads per square kilometer. In any case, a relatively compact army. robbing everything out of hand, she will feel herself on an agricultural territory... much better than in the steppe.

I believe a good way to represent this in game would be that the light cavalry have a lighter logistical weight when on a plains tile vs a forest tile.

And... in the end, despite all the comments above, I agree. Moreover, since the introduction of new tags is inevitable in this case, they should be used more widely. It is obvious that not only light cavalry will face logistical problems in the same forest.

Keep in mind that nomadic armies are very tribal and very prone to infighting

Hmm ... So, the nomads with their tribal organization turned out to be organized at the level of Rome and, that is, qualitatively better than the feudal and tribal armies of farmers. At first glance, this can be considered a unique option for Genghis Khan personally, but there is one problem.
Many of the "technologies" of Genghis are direct borrowing from the Khitan. Who were very close predecessors of Genghis. And this chain stretches all the way to the Xiongnu. In general, the strong leaders of the eastern nomads were not exactly put on the conveyor belt, but ...
In fact, nomads
1) much more mobile and contact than farmers. In other words, tribalism and isolationism are inevitably less developed among them than among barbarian farmers or in feudal kingdoms.
2) Do not have "natural fortresses" of mountain and forest barbarians, or the same + also castles in the case of feudal lords.
3) Theoretically, they can migrate, but in practice, each piece of the steppe already has owners. And they will be VERY against it.
That is, nomads are more susceptible to coercion by the central government. If at the same time there is enough surplus product to maintain this power... In Mongolia, unlike poorer Western nomads, there is enough of it. As a result, we see what we see.

Р.S. There is one more point. Ideally (quite ideally) it is worth separating food and non-food logistics. Food "fines" can be compensated at the expense of the terrain, non–food ones are not - and then everything is summed up. It won't make any difference for hand–to-hand units, quite a little - for early gunpowder, but ... Already in relation to the "heavy" mechanized formations of the Second World War, it looks very different. Well, the Soviet divisions of the Cold War in terms of the daily consumption of ammunition in the offensive persistently tried to surpass the entire French army, and not even in 1916. In general, the MLRS compound has a huge "appetite", but it has nothing to do with food:mischief:.
 
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however do know that through the Nomadic system on the books and an inventory mechanism, as well as some shipping unit purpose changes, there are some ideas as to how to address this that have been in planning for a bit - an alternative system option may be good to check it against for variations of fun and player transparency and how intuitive they are.
Thank you, but the problem is that getting to the appropriate topic will be... it's not easy. As it turned out, the search on the forum is limited to messages from 2018. Which means an extremely sad prospect to view about 800 pages. 1.5 minutes per page = more than a day.
 
Just picked up C2C again after almost a year (since November). Any big changes?

I have already started a new game, and I made an observation that I'm surprised I never made before: flax is not a grain! Yet, it has edible seeds that can be used to make bread. Is it possible to make a flax farm (plantation?) Provide grains? Or, perhaps, the bakery could require grain or flax?
 
Р.S. There is one more point. Ideally (quite ideally) it is worth separating food and non-food logistics. Food "fines" can be compensated at the expense of the terrain, non–food ones are not - and then everything is summed up. It won't make any difference for hand–to-hand units, quite a little - for early gunpowder, but ... Already in relation to the "heavy" mechanized formations of the Second World War, it looks very different. Well, the Soviet divisions of the Cold War in terms of the daily consumption of ammunition in the offensive persistently tried to surpass the entire French army, and not even in 1916. In general, the MLRS compound has a huge "appetite", but it has nothing to do with food:mischief:

Very good point. Industrialized armies are much less dependent on the local terrain for food, so terrain won't have as much as an impact, except in regards such as mountains making it harder to supply (such as ammo) said armies. An industrialized army would have quite a heavy logistical weight due, especially due to fuel, ammo, and parts. It becomes even more pertinent to build logistical buildings, such as ammo depots to expand the logistical capacity off said army or lessen the logistical weight of certain units. For example, lets say your army has logistical capacity for 35 units before suffering any penalties, an ammo depot could expand it to 36 units or reduce the logistical weight of tank by percent.

This got me thinking about different unit types, as in very broad types: Militia vs irregulars vs professional soldiers in relation to morale. Militia, such as levied troops and irregulars, such as hunters would be very hard pressed to venture beyond their borders, if they do, suffer a morale loss represented as strength penalty. On the plus side, irregulars gain a strength bonus operating near their home city to represent local knowledge. Some irregulars may can only be recruited in certain cities, depending on terrain, buildings, traditions, etc. Meanwhile, professional soldiers, such as legionnaires, knights, line infantry, etc do not suffer morale loss when venturing beyond one's borders and provide bonuses to the army, such as crossbowmen providing first strike bonus to the army (a feature in the Realism Invictus mod).


The idea beyond differentiating troops into the aforementioned categories is to prevent the unrealistic scenario of an army of levied peasants marching across the globe and razing cities to the ground. Professional soldiers are much stronger than militia, but also much more expensive. Irregulars are somewhere in between, use them to strengths and they can pack a punch, don't use them according to their strengths and they'll get wasted-for example, (forest) hunters do extremely well in the forests, especially near their home cities, but send them to a desert and cav charge them, they'll melt away. Militia's promotions are much more restricted than professional soldiers. Irregulars promotions are somewhat restricted and more tailored to their specialty. For example, forest hunters will never have promotions for city assault, but will have promotions such as hit and run. In fact, an irregular can have a promotion tree go one step further than a professional soldiers for one specific promotion depending on specialty. Hypothetically, a forest hunter's max promotion for accuracy would be 5, while the professional soldier would be 4. In short, professional soldier's promotion tree operate as the current promotion tree.

The only exception is great generals. Militia do not suffer morale lost when with a great general. Militia and irregulars are affected by a generals promotions. Caveat: Irregulars still need to be used to their speciality.

TLDR: Divide units into three broad categories: Militia, irregulars, and professional soldiers. Morale and promotions affect each type differently. Great generals make militia not be wimps. Great generals are great indeed.
 
don't know what happened to my previous post on advanced starts. Anyway, I remember that a few version back (perhaps 37?) I played a game on Industrial start and the AI was still capable of solving the production puzzle and throwing up decent armies. In that version, the AI would also be able to produce huge armies in the game on prehistoric starts, hundreds of units. This seems gone from the game; was there any change to the code? I understand if it was for the sake of performance, but it's a pity, since those big stacks were fun to beat.
 
remind me again how to get a religion out of a city??
1. Inquisitor unit.
2. Disappears on its own over time, under certain game options (not sure). Doesn't affect founder cities (meaning, needs an Inquisitor to get rid of, and maybe Holy City Relocation in BUG).
3. You can also remove religions in FOREIGN cities with Spy missions, lol. If you plan on capturing a city, a preemptive heretics cleansing may be worth it, hehehe.
 
1. Inquisitor unit.
2. Disappears on its own over time, under certain game options (not sure). Doesn't affect founder cities (meaning, needs an Inquisitor to get rid of, and maybe Holy City Relocation in BUG).
3. You can also remove religions in FOREIGN cities with Spy missions, lol. If you plan on capturing a city, a preemptive heretics cleansing may be worth it, hehehe.
thought so, but i dont have a unit like that avail, even though i have inquisitorial civic on. . .
 
thought so, but i dont have a unit like that avail, even though i have inquisitorial civic on. . .
Can be caused by a civic or option or trait.
Some game functions are way too much of "hidden surprises" that may annoy you retroactively, if you don't pay attention to their full descriptions.
It certainly has happened to me with civics, but at least those are reversible.
Traits, though... are a real harmful nuisance in this regard.
 
thought so, but i dont have a unit like that avail, even though i have inquisitorial civic on. . .
The civic "Egalitarian" explicitly forbids inquisitions while not being a Religion civic itself (so it could be combined with Inquisitorial).
 
tried almost everything, cant even see an inquisitor in the untrainable area// changed all the civics, changed religions, nothing . .

anyways, can we pls REDUCE the size of the dread armorer vehicle, too large can't see much when in the city??
 

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What happened to air strikes against enemy units? that seems gone. Can't strike units. Tried tactical bombers, fighters, strategic bombers, missiles, the targets are greyed out, even at full strength. Tried striking stacks of 2 or 3, same, can't strike. Is this a recent bug?
 
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Very good point.

Thank you very much:)

This got me thinking about different unit types,

Heh, we have extremely similar interests. I also thought about an adequate image of different formats of troops, though mostly in a different direction. As a result ... it turned out to be a huge treatise :hammer2: again – despite the fact that I sincerely hate writing a lot. In general, I will spread it gradually.

Militia vs irregulars vs professional soldiers in relation to morale.

Hmm, it's not that simple with this classification.

1. It is intuitively understandable, but the level of organization (regularity), professionalism (military service as the main occupation and source of income) and the principle of recruitment are still different things. Accordingly, we are talking about intersecting "sets".
For example, the classic militia, as you know, are irregulars with a specific principle of recruitment. And at the same time, there is a variant of regular troops, equipped on a militia basis, "potentially all capable of carrying weapons, from 16 to 60." In fact, a regular militia. In the classical form, these are, of course, conscription armies of the New Time.
Further, if this society has a so–called "raiding economy" and the bulk of the population is involved in it, then the militia will largely consist of professionals.

2. At the same time, it is clear that the regularity of the army is a "complex" sign. Including centralized recruitment according to legalized rules, centralized supply, centralized command, etc. As a result, an extremely diverse company falls into the niche of "irregulars who are not militia".

3. Finally, the type of motivation of "recruits" does not actually have an automatic correspondence with any of the three main parameters from point 1. That is, it is a separate "variable".
As a result, the same irregulars include both extreme "stay-at-home" and varieties of soldiers motivated to act outside their territory ... even more than professionals.
If the motive is the spread of ideology by the sword, or robbery, the result is quite obvious. At the same time, if robbery is the only source of income, the motivation is higher than that of an exemplary/reference professional on a regular salary.

4. In general, everything is as usual. Instead of simplicity and clarity, we need to draw an intricate "periodic table" again. At the same time, even if we take only the main signs, we will get a threatening number of options, many of which will have logistical features.

5. And yes, there is a terminological discrepancy. For example, there is quite an official term "feudal militia" - implying "all capable of carrying weapons ... from a certain social stratum." At the same time, outside of boring science, the "militia" was generally called anything. The most innocent option is territorial army that were really completed/recruited as a militia… about two hundred years ago.
 
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had to add it , but now how the heck can i delete a religion from my city, there is nothing there that i can use???
 

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tried almost everything, cant even see an inquisitor in the untrainable area// changed all the civics, changed religions, nothing . .

anyways, can we pls REDUCE the size of the dread armorer vehicle, too large can't see much when in the city??
You also need to have a government that hates religion or hates all but your own declared religion and a leader that's also heavily biased towards one or none. I don't like the current inquisitor - gets rid of all religions outside of the state religion at once. I'd much prefer one that is a little easier to access and is used to try to get rid of one type at at time. Then maybe have a great one that tries to eliminate all but the state religion.
 
Hmm, it's not that simple with this classification.
Often reality is not sadly :(

4. In general, everything is as usual. Instead of simplicity and clarity, we need to draw an intricate "periodic table" again. At the same time, even if we take only the main signs, we will get a threatening number of options, many of which will have logistical features.
A periodic table may take awhile to implement into the game. For now, the very least, it would be great to see "militia" units that are cheap to recruit, but suffer a sizable strength penalty if used outside of your borders with a restricted promotion tree. Also, their base strength would be less than standard units by default. The AI would have to know that these units are mainly for defense purposes, so if it were to build an offensive army, it would not include these "militia" units in them. It would know to build them for defensive purposes. The AI would be incentivized to build them if it finds itself getting weak military compared to its neighbors (militia is better than no military after all). Also, the militia would typically not any specific resource, but be constructed by food, which is a concept from the Realism Invictus mod-these units were styled as levied troops.
 
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