Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[strategyonly]

Bug in the latest V13 assets. BuildingInfos includes:

		<BuildingClassInfo>
			<Type>BUILDINGCLASS_MANOR</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_MANOR</Description>
			<iMaxGlobalInstances>-1</iMaxGlobalInstances>
			<iMaxTeamInstances>-1</iMaxTeamInstances>
			<iMaxPlayerInstances>-1</iMaxPlayerInstances>
			<iExtraPlayerInstances>0</iExtraPlayerInstances>
			<bNoLimit>0</bNoLimit>
			<bMonument>0</bMonument>
			<DefaultBuilding>BUILDING_MANOR</DefaultBuilding>
			<VictoryThresholds/>
		</BuildingClassInfo>

However BUILDING_MANOR is not defined (causes assertion failure in the DEBUG version, which is harmless but I'm guessing the INTENT was to have a manor building??)

Edit - another (totally unrelated) observation:

Castle Keep requires President? That seems rather weird (historically anyway!)

Yeah i forgot to take out Villa, Manor, Estate and Shanty Town from the above mentioned file

 

[Koshling]

@StrategyOnly -The bug that prevents scouts from loading on Caravels is in the XML. In Assets/xml/units/Civ4UnitInfos.xml:

		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_SCOUT</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_SCOUT</Type>
			<UniqueNames/>
			[B]<Special>NONE</Special>[/B]
			<Capture>NONE</Capture>
			<Combat>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</Combat>

should be:

		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_SCOUT</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_SCOUT</Type>
			<UniqueNames/>
			[B]<Special>SPECIALUNIT_PEOPLE</Special>[/B]
			<Capture>NONE</Capture>
			<Combat>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</Combat>

This is correct in the latest AND so I guess there must have been a mis-merge at some point in the past...

 

[strategyonly]

@StrategyOnly -The bug that prevents scouts from loading on Caravels is in the XML. In Assets/xml/units/Civ4UnitInfos.xml:

		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_SCOUT</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_SCOUT</Type>
			<UniqueNames/>
			[B]<Special>NONE</Special>[/B]
			<Capture>NONE</Capture>
			<Combat>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</Combat>

should be:

		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_SCOUT</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_SCOUT</Type>
			<UniqueNames/>
			[B]<Special>SPECIALUNIT_PEOPLE</Special>[/B]
			<Capture>NONE</Capture>
			<Combat>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</Combat>

This is correct in the latest AND so I guess there must have been a mis-merge at some point in the past...

Yes you are absolutely correct:
Caravel:
<SpecialCargo>SPECIALUNIT_PEOPLE</SpecialCargo>
Thx

Your idea on Castle Keep? _________?

 

[Koshling]

Yes you are absolutely correct:
Caravel:
<SpecialCargo>SPECIALUNIT_PEOPLE</SpecialCargo>
Thx

Your idea on Castle Keep? _________?

How about either TECH_FEUDALISM, or if we want to make it harder and likely to be moer historically correct in terms of when it gets used CIVIC_FEUDALISM?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Koshling & strategyonly

Was that a new change to the Castle Keep from the new AND merge? And i agree ites weird. It should either have no limit or like Kosh said Feudalism.

@strategyonly & Dancing Hoskuld

Ok why do some maps like Terra allow for Kelp and Reefs to appear on the map but other maps like Perfect World 2 do not? I personally like Perfect World 2 the best since the maps feel more organic. However I would also like to experience kelp and reefs in that map too. Note that during pre-testing of kelp I was able to have kelp on PW2 map but since then I have not. Also the PW2 map has a "f" at the end of its name now. What is up with that?

 

[strategyonly]

How about either TECH_FEUDALISM, or if we want to make it harder and likely to be moer historically correct in terms of when it gets used CIVIC_FEUDALISM?

ok i found it it was listed twice, in the buildinginfos file

@Koshling & strategyonly

Was that a new change to the Castle Keep from the new AND merge? And i agree ites weird. It should either have no limit or like Kosh said Feudalism.

@strategyonly & Dancing Hoskuld

Ok why do some maps like Terra allow for Kelp and Reefs to appear on the map but other maps like Perfect World 2 do not? I personally like Perfect World 2 the best since the maps feel more organic. However I would also like to experience kelp and reefs in that map too. Note that during pre-testing of kelp I was able to have kelp on PW2 map but since then I have not. Also the PW2 map has a "f" at the end of its name now. What is up with that?

I have no idea about he mapscript, they seem to have all the same resource limitations in the scripts? And the f is a brand new version. There is still a RoM_PerfectWorld also.


EDIT: I just noticed that also, in the civicsinfo area there were they also listed, but not Shantytown, they need to be removed also.

Yeah i forgot to take out Villa, Manor, and Estate from the above mentioned file

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@DH - I have got to the bottom of this issue, and frankly I think it's intractable (or at least HIGHLY risky in terms of the magnitude of change required, to the extent that it's probably not justified). I can offer you a workaround to fix your game, but first here is the explanation:

The game maintains aggregates of all modifiers that apply to the player, on the CvPlayer object (commerce mods, happyness mods, etc.) and these include the aggregate iCityLimit (can have components from multiple civics in principal, or even from other sources, though currently no XML tags exist to allow us to define those additional limits from things such as buildings, though the underlying capability is there).

When a game is saved the current values on the CvPlayer object are serialised, with no way to tell where the individual contributors of each serialised aggregate value come from. Thus when the game is loaded the aggregate (3 in this case) is restored, even though its 'source' has gone. It's not feasible for the load to 'repair' this without major changes (don't serialise ANY of this, but instead recalculate it from scratch each load). I am of the view that such a reworking WOULD actually be desirable, but there are huge numbers of these aggregate values (on players and cities), so it would be a big job with a high risk of bug introduction, so I don't think it is currently justified.

As to a workaround, here is a way out (it'll cost you a few turns of anarchy though):

1) Put the iCityLimit back temporarily
2) Load the game
3) Switch out of the chiefdom civic (if necessary change the despotism definition so you can temporarily)
4) Save the game
5) Edit the assets back to remove the iCityLimit again
6) Load the game and switch back to chiefdom

Essentially the key part is switching out of the civic while it has the iCityLimit of 3 on it (which will remove the contribution of 3 from the aggregate). Equally you could (I think - haven't actually TRIED this) define another civic as having a limit of -3 (!) and switching INTO that then saving (and then taking the -3 limit off before reloading).

@Afforess and modders generally - what do you guys think about the radical (potential) change of not serialising any of the aggregate values on players and cities, but instead recalculating on load?? This does have benefits:

• Prevents load-across-asset-change issues like DH's
• Would cause loads to 'fix' bugs that cause the aggregates to get out of step (I'm pretty sure we have some in this category)
• Would (slightly) reduce save sizes

The downside is that it would be a risky (and fairly complex) change...?

If I could change from Chiefdom I would not have the problem but that was 100s of turns in the future.

There can be some variables in the save which are from python. I have not figured out how to use it properly yet. So just saying be aware if you intend to recalculate aggregates.

@StrategyOnly -The bug that prevents scouts from loading on Caravels is in the XML. In Assets/xml/units/Civ4UnitInfos.xml:

		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_SCOUT</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_SCOUT</Type>
			<UniqueNames/>
			[B]<Special>NONE</Special>[/B]
			<Capture>NONE</Capture>
			<Combat>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</Combat>

should be:

		<UnitInfo>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_SCOUT</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_SCOUT</Type>
			<UniqueNames/>
			[B]<Special>SPECIALUNIT_PEOPLE</Special>[/B]
			<Capture>NONE</Capture>
			<Combat>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</Combat>

This is correct in the latest AND so I guess there must have been a mis-merge at some point in the past...

I tried that with the explorer but it still did not load onto a caravel. Maybe I had it as not defend only.

@strategyonly & Dancing Hoskuld

Ok why do some maps like Terra allow for Kelp and Reefs to appear on the map but other maps like Perfect World 2 do not? I personally like Perfect World 2 the best since the maps feel more organic. However I would also like to experience kelp and reefs in that map too. Note that during pre-testing of kelp I was able to have kelp on PW2 map but since then I have not. Also the PW2 map has a "f" at the end of its name now. What is up with that?

I suspect that it needs to have have those features added into the code.

 

[strategyonly]

I suspect that it needs to have have those features added into the code.

Actually the resources that are generated with all of the mapscripts is a generic coding to add all available resources listed. From what i am seeing in the mapscripts.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Actually the resources that are generated with all of the mapscripts is a generic coding to add all available resources listed. From what i am seeing in the mapscripts.

Features not resources.

I have had a go with the suggestion about increasing tech costs by era and while I a only in the classic period on snail the techs are taking a more reasonable amount of time to research. Attached is the XML file if you want to try it out yourself. It goes in the Assets/XML/GameInfo folder. make a backup of the original just in case you don't like it and use maximum save if you want to use it in a current game.

Btw, by heading straight to bronze working, I only had 7 settlers each with an archer, healer and 4 missionaries ready in place to build cities the turn I was no longer limited to 3 cities.

Edit I have checked the perfect world f python and it adds in features in the correct places. This means that the reefs and kelp are not added because they are not known to the code. Cant just add them to the code either need to put the logic in also. :sigh:

 

[Koshling]

How does kelp interact with storms? They are both features in the bas terrain right? So presumably the growth of one precludes the other?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

How does kelp interact with storms? They are both features in the bas terrain right? So presumably the growth of one precludes the other?

I would say so. Same goes for reefs but they don't grow. So a storm can't go on to a plot with a reef or kelp and kelp can't grow onto a plot occupied by a storm.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hydromancerx, here is a quick and dirty map script for you. Adds both kelp and reefs to perfectworldf. probably needs work on probabilities and latitude.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Thanks Dancing Hoskuld!

EDIT: So I am only in like the Ancient Era and just got Bronze Working so i could build more cities. However the English are kicking my butt badly. They are so far ahead since they took over another civ very early in the game. Now they just took of 2 of my 3 cities. My units can hardly hold off their highly superior units. I have not had a game like this in a long time. I still am making gold like crazy but that still will not get me techs. So at least in that aspect its balanced. I apparently am very rich and stupid. lol Anywho If I mange to live this will be one of the most epic underdog games. If not it was still fun. Thanks C2C Team!

 

[strategyonly]

So I am only in like the Ancient Era and just got Bronze Working so i could build more cities. However the English are kicking my butt badly. They are so far ahead since they took over another civ very early in the game. Now they just took of 2 of my 3 cities. My units can hardly hold off their highly superior units. I have not had a game like this in a long time. I still am making gold like crazy but that still will not get me techs. So at least in that aspect its balanced. I apparently am very rich and stupid. lol Anywho If I mange to live this will be one of the most epic underdog games. If not it was still fun. Thanks C2C Team!

Wait till you get the Renaissance Era, even with all that gold now you will run out fast. I thought i was doing great until two nations attacked me and then all of a sudden the gold disappeared and i had to keep making military units just to keep one city at the borders, then another joined the attack from the west with horses and well all i can say is, all my workers are now GONE And still no gold.

@Koshling:

There seems to be something wrong with the Auto Hunt, my Hunter was far above the mountains area (see pic) and then cam back to the city and attached itself to the StoneAxeman. So just to test it even more i took it really far away this time, but same results, it cam back and attached it again

Also went my Rogue was in another civs limits, i was pillaging them improvements, but then had to wait for some health to return, and by then a gatherer had built its improvements (under me)(wheat) and it threw my Rogue out of the borders area, for some reason?? Had almost the same earlier when i tried Rev again (i shouldn't have) but for some reason it took over the city even tough i has 6 units in it, and threw them outside the city limits and took the town without a fight Wish i would have kept an autogame of it but i didnt, cause i was thinking, i was too T-O'ed i played with Rev on. Then another Civ showed up out of nowhere and started attacking me also in the Rev stuff. Dang i hate Rev on. Every two turns reinforcemnts arrived, i didnt have a chance in H E (double) hockey sticks.

Also since DH made the alphabet listing, i cant find out which one of the HOVER buildings is pink, can someone else help also?

 

[Koshling]

I'm in the middle of trying to improve the early AI for subdued animals and assocaited hunting behaviour, and I am finding some strange things in the XML, which may be deliberate but which I don't understand.

Anyone know why subdued animals are not flagged with bAnimal? This means that plus-against-animal units don't get their bonuses against them (why wouldn't they?), and also means the AI is getting confused and treating them PURELY as great engineers (and consequently getting them killed more often than not, since GEs don't have any concept of combat defense)

 

[Koshling]

Wait till you get the Renaissance Era, even with all that gold now you will run out fast. I thought i was doing great until two nations attacked me and then all of a sudden the gold disappeared and i had to keep making military units just to keep one city at the borders, then another joined the attack from the west with horses and well all i can say is, all my workers are now GONE And still no gold.

@Koshling:

There seems to be something wrong with the Auto Hunt, my Hunter was far above the mountains area (see pic) and then cam back to the city and attached itself to the StoneAxeman. So just to test it even more i took it really far away this time, but same results, it cam back and attached it again

Also went my Rogue was in another civs limits, i was pillaging them improvements, but then had to wait for some health to return, and by then a gatherer had built its improvements (under me)(wheat) and it threw my Rogue out of the borders area, for some reason?? Had almost the same earlier when i tried Rev again (i shouldn't have) but for some reason it took over the city even tough i has 6 units in it, and threw them outside the city limits and took the town without a fight Wish i would have kept an autogame of it but i didnt, cause i was thinking, i was too T-O'ed i played with Rev on. Then another Civ showed up out of nowhere and started attacking me also in the Rev stuff. Dang i hate Rev on. Every two turns reinforcemnts arrived, i didnt have a chance in H E (double) hockey sticks.

Also since DH made the alphabet listing, i cant find out which one of the HOVER buildings is pink, can someone else help also?

I'll look at the hunting automation when I get an opportunity (in the middle of some AI work right now).

The pink blob is due to something not having an associated art asset I think. Can't you hover over it to see what it is textually? (or in the city screen)

 

[strategyonly]

I'll look at the hunting automation when I get an opportunity (in the middle of some AI work right now).

The pink blob is due to something not having an associated art asset I think. Can't you hover over it to see what it is textually? (or in the city screen)

ok. btw i finally tried Marathon, nice work on the turn times, i am very impressed

Nope it doesnt show up in the city screen, only when hovering.

Does any remember what it takes to (so to say) "up the anty") on copper and iron, i know how, just having a Brain F_rt right now. (see pic)

And btw Kelp is almost all around the island every square inch

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Also since DH made the alphabet listing, i cant find out which one of the HOVER buildings is pink, can someone else help also?

Not me! That is from BUG, BAT or BUFFY or what ever. Since it only shows up pink there it means that there is a space somewhere in the folder or file name.

I'm in the middle of trying to improve the early AI for subdued animals and assocaited hunting behaviour, and I am finding some strange things in the XML, which may be deliberate but which I don't understand.

Anyone know why subdued animals are not flagged with bAnimal? This means that plus-against-animal units don't get their bonuses against them (why wouldn't they?), and also means the AI is getting confused and treating them PURELY as great engineers (and consequently getting them killed more often than not, since GEs don't have any concept of combat defense)

Units with bAnimal set can not enter cultural borders. Which would defeat the purpose. Thunderbrd was discussing changing the way that animals worked so that if they were not barbarians then they could enter borders. The aim was to reduce the number of units by making a subdued animal and a wild animal the same unit but I did not think we came to a compromise I could live with.

And btw Kelp is almost all around the island every square inch

I think I got the spread value wrong. However I would like it to spread over resources without destroying them.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Also went my Rogue was in another civs limits, i was pillaging them improvements, but then had to wait for some health to return, and by then a gatherer had built its improvements (under me)(wheat) and it threw my Rogue out of the borders area, for some reason?? Had almost the same earlier when i tried Rev again (i shouldn't have) but for some reason it took over the city even tough i has 6 units in it, and threw them outside the city limits and took the town without a fight Wish i would have kept an autogame of it but i didnt, cause i was thinking, i was too T-O'ed i played with Rev on. Then another Civ showed up out of nowhere and started attacking me also in the Rev stuff. Dang i hate Rev on. Every two turns reinforcemnts arrived, i didnt have a chance in H E (double) hockey sticks.

I had a weird thing happen to me too. I had captured one of the enemy cities and it was very far from the rest of my empire. I had troops stationed there and they kept getting bombarded by enemy troops trying to get their city back. Then all of a sudden when a revolution hit the city all my troops were booted from the city and placed in the tile right next to the city and thus the city was empty for that turn. In which the AI took back over their city before I could move again. Note I did not move them out of the city. What the heck is going on here?

 

[strategyonly]

I had a weird thing happen to me too. I had captured one of the enemy cities and it was very far from the rest of my empire. I had troops stationed there and they kept getting bombarded by enemy troops trying to get their city back. Then all of a sudden when a revolution hit the city all my troops were booted from the city and placed in the tile right next to the city and thus the city was empty for that turn. In which the AI took back over their city before I could move again. Note I did not move them out of the city. What the heck is going on here?

Thats what i was trying to say, also.