Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[Thunderbrd]

I would like to suggest a few minor changes to the Prehistoric era in the interests of historical accuracy and game balance;
1: Currently, the game begins during the Upper Paleolithic, which works with a tech tree starting with behavioural modernity, but not for the more extensive conceptual-skill evolution tree we have. I would thus like to suggest it to shifted back to 200,000 BC and am willing to provide the modified spawn and settings fiiles to assist in such a transition, as well as help redesign the first interval of the gamespeeds to accomodate this change.
2. I like to think of the first four eras as being divided into 3 parts each. In the case of the Prehistoric era, these are the Middle Paleolithic (200,000-50,000 BC), Upper Paleolithic (50,000-10,000 BC) and Neolithic (10,000-5000 BC). Accordingly, I divide the Prehistoric era into 3 parts of 6 x sections each. The earliest seafarers were apparently a mysterious people with genetic links to the Dravidian Indians, who crossed through the Torres Trait to Australia around 50,000 BC. Accordingly, and to broaden the currently nonexistant gap between Raft Building and Boat Building, I move that Raft Building be moved to require Hunting, representing the historical coastal migrations the proto-Dravidians took across Southern Asia, chasing big game animals and other new resources. At this point, the rafts don't even have to be manmade; they can be logs or flotsam which these early seamen cling to across the tides and currents, hence the predating of Simple Wood Working.
2: The earliest undisputed evidence of lupine domestication dates to 30,000 BC, which coincidentially fits quite well as a swap with Raft Building's position. I would also, coincidentially, suggest Hunting Tactics as a requirement, given that the original efforts at domesticating canines were almost certainly motivated by the desire to utilize their sense of scent and speed to aid early human hunting expeditions.

On an unrelated note, would it be much to ask for someone to fiddle around a bit with the Python code for dynamic civ names so that you start of as "People" or "People of", move on to the standard "Tribe" configuration if using the Tribal society civic and can only obtain "City State" or "City States" status after Sedentary Lifestyle, and "Empire" from Bronze Working onward. That would lend a lot more atmosphere to the Prehistoric era, and make those later techs feel more like the societal paradigm shifts they historically were.

Personally.... I think everything you just said there is Golden!

I've long been an advocate of a much more ancient start date and you, ls612, EldrinFal, SO and I are those I feel have a thorough understanding of the gamespeed file enough to manipulate it effectively and trustworthily so unless ls612 disagrees, I would personally be quite happy to have you work that out.

One thing I wanted to see happen with our Nomadic Start option was the tribe being able to develop the ability to travel the seas in a limited fashion so that we could replicate the kind of raft dating you're talking about.

And what you suggest here in regards to the tech tree adjustments would sort out our raft/canoe issues perfectly too.

AIAndy's naming system, once its fully debugged, could, I think, make what you're saying about 'People of' quite doable. Such an adjustment would also play in quite nicely with a future project I have in mind (Adopting Cultures.)

 

[Hydromancerx]

2. I like to think of the first four eras as being divided into 3 parts each. In the case of the Prehistoric era, these are the Middle Paleolithic (200,000-50,000 BC), Upper Paleolithic (50,000-10,000 BC) and Neolithic (10,000-5000 BC). Accordingly, I divide the Prehistoric era into 3 parts of 6 x sections each. The earliest seafarers were apparently a mysterious people with genetic links to the Dravidian Indians, who crossed through the Torres Trait to Australia around 50,000 BC. Accordingly, and to broaden the currently nonexistant gap between Raft Building and Boat Building, I move that Raft Building be moved to require Hunting, representing the historical coastal migrations the proto-Dravidians took across Southern Asia, chasing big game animals and other new resources. At this point, the rafts don't even have to be manmade; they can be logs or flotsam which these early seamen cling to across the tides and currents, hence the predating of Simple Wood Working.

First of all I dread even touching the Prehistoric tech tree since we have redone it 3 times. But then since these are minor changes I will try to work with you.

How about we move it to require Simple Wood Working and Binding. I think Binding would be a very important tech and both are in the same area on the tree. So something like ...

Raft Building
Req Techs: Simple Wood Working AND Binding
Location: x10 Y5

And then Canoe building would need to be tweaked.

Canoe Building
Req Techs: Trap Fishing AND Raft Building AND Tanning AND Carpentry

Carpentry would be added to fill in the missing gap.

3: The earliest undisputed evidence of lupine domestication dates to 30,000 BC, which coincidentially fits quite well as a swap with Raft Building's position. I would also, coincidentially, suggest Hunting Tactics as a requirement, given that the original efforts at domesticating canines were almost certainly motivated by the desire to utilize their sense of scent and speed to aid early human hunting expeditions.

Moving Canine Domestication is basically putting back to where we had it before. The only factor is that you will be blind to Thieves for a very long time. Unless of course you make your own thief. Which was the case in older versions of C2C.

Canine Domestication
Req Tech: Hunting Tactics
Location: X14 Y11

Overall if you changed those 3 techs I think it could work. I will go re-post in the tech thread.

 

[Mouthwash]

Sorry, looks like I double posted this below.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The "tribes of Rome" were voting blocks during the republic.

I would like to split the tech tree into two eras, Paleolithic and Neolithic, but it is too much work

 

[Mouthwash]

I would like to suggest a few minor changes to the Prehistoric era in the interests of historical accuracy and game balance;

1: Currently, the game begins during the Upper Paleolithic, which works with a tech tree starting with behavioural modernity, but not for the more extensive conceptual-skill evolution tree we have. I would thus like to suggest it to shifted back to 200,000 BC and am willing to provide the modified spawn and settings fiiles to assist in such a transition, as well as help redesign the first interval of the gamespeeds to accomodate this change.

2. I like to think of the first four eras as being divided into 3 parts each. In the case of the Prehistoric era, these are the Middle Paleolithic (200,000-50,000 BC), Upper Paleolithic (50,000-10,000 BC) and Neolithic (10,000-5000 BC). Accordingly, I divide the Prehistoric era into 3 parts of 6 x sections each. The earliest seafarers were apparently a mysterious people with genetic links to the Dravidian Indians, who crossed through the Torres Trait to Australia around 50,000 BC. Accordingly, and to broaden the currently nonexistant gap between Raft Building and Boat Building, I move that Raft Building be moved to require Hunting, representing the historical coastal migrations the proto-Dravidians took across Southern Asia, chasing big game animals and other new resources. At this point, the rafts don't even have to be manmade; they can be logs or flotsam which these early seamen cling to across the tides and currents, hence the predating of Simple Wood Working.

2: The earliest undisputed evidence of lupine domestication dates to 30,000 BC, which coincidentially fits quite well as a swap with Raft Building's position. I would also, coincidentially, suggest Hunting Tactics as a requirement, given that the original efforts at domesticating canines were almost certainly motivated by the desire to utilize their sense of scent and speed to aid early human hunting expeditions.

On an unrelated note, would it be much to ask for someone to fiddle around a bit with the Python code for dynamic civ names so that you start of as "People" or "People of", move on to the standard "Tribe" configuration if using the Tribal society civic and can only obtain "City State" or "City States" status after Sedentary Lifestyle, and "Empire" from Bronze Working onward. That would lend a lot more atmosphere to the Prehistoric era, and make those later techs feel more like the societal paradigm shifts they historically were.

Please break your points; I can't read huge blocks of text. I've done it above.

I think that these are excellent ideas, although "people of" doesn't really sound like a primitive name (saying "People of Rome" makes me think of Rome the city). Putting it the opposite way: "Roman people" or "Roman peoples" (depending on if there is more than one city- they might capture one ) would sound quite a bit better. Similarly, if they had more than one city during the tribal phase, they could be referred to as the "Roman tribes" which makes sense considering that the settler units are actually tribes.

I think that sedentary lifestyle isn't a good choice at all for calling it a city state at all; historically a few real-life peoples known as "tribes" lived that way. The names should decided not by how advanced you are but by what civics you have. If you have either Chiefdom or Tribal in place, then you should still be referred to as "Tribe." And again, if there is more than one city they should be called "city states."

The term "Empire" is a hugely misused one; it actually means "a geographically extensive group of states and peoples united and ruled either by a monarch or an oligarchy." So it should only have the term if it is ruled by a monarch/despot/oligarchy and if it is over a certain size. Obviously some other civics might override this label. Modern day China fits all the requirements but we don't refer to it as an empire.

 

[strategyonly]

The "tribes of Rome" were voting blocks during the republic.

I would like to split the tech tree into two eras, Paleolithic and Neolithic, but it is too much work

I was thinking of this last year already, but i didn't want to impose upon everyone when stuff was coming together very nicely, back then. But i definitely would like this. It took me around, 6 months or so to get the two era's added and working "somewhat." Moving EACH and EVERY tech, sometimes is daunting.

 

[Taxman66]

First of all I dread even touching the Prehistoric tech tree since we have redone it 3 times. But then since these are minor changes I will try to work with you.

How about we move it to require Simple Wood Working and Binding. I think Binding would be a very important tech and both are in the same area on the tree. So something like ...

Raft Building
Req Techs: Simple Wood Working AND Binding
Location: x10 Y5

And then Canoe building would need to be tweaked.

Canoe Building
Req Techs: Trap Fishing AND Raft Building AND Tanning AND Carpentry

FYI, the earliest canoes were simply hollowed out thick logs. Later advancements included firing the inside, and then carving (i.e. shapping the prow and stern). Unless, of course you want to consider those as rafts? In either case they don't need binding, much less tanning or carpentry.

 

[Praetyre]

Well, if I were to offer a suggestion as to the Neolithic era's scope, I would say x15 to x22 would be a good account for breath, though consequently the Ancient era would be due for an enlargement (which it has been for a good while IMHO anyway). Livestock Domestication would be the gateway tech, much as Sedentary Lifestyle is for Ancient, while Ancient's would be Copper Working.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I was thinking of this last year already, but i didn't want to impose upon everyone when stuff was coming together very nicely, back then. But i definitely would like this. It took me around, 6 months or so to get the two era's added and working "somewhat." Moving EACH and EVERY tech, sometimes is daunting.

I don't mind moving those 2 techs, but I am highly opposed to redoing the Prehistoric era again. I am happy with it. Please just let it be. There are plenty of other aspects of the mod we should be doing. Not the same ones over and over again.

 

[strategyonly]

I don't mind moving those 2 techs, but I am highly opposed to redoing the Prehistoric era again. I am happy with it. Please just let it be. There are plenty of other aspects of the mod we should be doing. Not the same ones over and over again.

This is the major factor, i knew you would say that, and your right, but its still out there!

 

[Hydromancerx]

This is the major factor, i knew you would say that, and your right, but its still out there!

Its not just that but Mr Azure proposed we add more future eras too. However it was concluded that we were better off just keeping the 10 eras we have.

1. Prehistoric
2. Ancient
3. Classical
4. Medieval
5. Renaissance
6. Industrial
7. Modern
8. Trans-Human
9. Galactic
10. Future

 

[Alex Costa]

Its not just that but Mr Azure proposed we add more future eras too. However it was concluded that we were better off just keeping the 10 eras we have.

1. Prehistoric
2. Ancient
3. Classical
4. Medieval
5. Renaissance
6. Industrial
7. Modern
8. Trans-Human
9. Galactic
10. Future

Personally I would like more eras especially divide Prehistoric into Paleolithic and Neolithic. But hey that is me.

 

[rightfuture]

I think that the prehistoric should be divided into the 3 scientifically recognized as distinct eras to the next level as deep as generally agreed upon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory

1. Paleolithic (middle 200,000 BP onwards)
2. Mesolithic (20,000 to 9500 BCE))
3. Neolithic (10,200 BC, according to the ASPRO chronology in some parts of the Middle East, and later in other parts of the world and ending between 4,500 and 2,000 BC)

and possibly the breakdown of the so called 3 age system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-age_system

1. Stone Age (already)
2. Bronze Age -range spanning approx spanning generally accepted time period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age
3. Iron Age -range spanning approx spanning generally accepted time period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age
which could reach up to or could cover/substitute for the Classic Era/Age. I think more people call it the Iron Age and or Bronze Ages, than the Classical Age.
Just saying...

I would also address the Expansion of the Future Era into 4 distinct (selectable/optional) Eras for completely different reasons than Mr.Azure was thinking, into:

1. Trans-Human Era
2. Galactic Era
3. Dimensional Era - Multi-verse, Alternate Dimensions, Minibig Bang/Wormhole exploration, Sliders (Tv-Show), portal between universe sci-fi exploration.
4. Transcendence - Beyond Future - Universe/Multiple Galaxy/Galactic Clusture - Even Imagination -Energy/ Pure/Energy Transformation/Human Existence -Exploration of the limits of possibility and creation - etc.
(extrapolation of Isaac Asimov's short story The Last Question)
Past Heat Death / Exceeding Humanity's self destruction / Contraction of the Universe
(some of this coincides with Sid Meier's expansion/extrapolation of Civilization (SMAC/SMAX) Alpha Centauri which ended with Transcendence as the ultimate future tech. I say take it beyond to the next level.
What haven't we imagined yet?

Can the C2C/Civfanatics/Greater 4x game forum world/Science Fiction speculated/imagined what that could be?
Jack Chalker did a good job of considering it (Which I've read and enjoyed),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_L._Chalker#The_Soul_Rider_series
Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke (Rama Series, Childhood's End for example), etc.
I just don't see why the Realm of Science Fiction can't be explored in C2C.
(or Fantasy inclusion as optional (not as personally interested) or mod-modded in the mod-mod section of C2C (see Terry Brook's(Shannara extensions) or Fred Saberhagen's(Swords books/Empire of the East) attempts to bridge Fantasy book series into post-apocalyptic reality explorations to bridge into Civ - Someone has recently mentioned the option of merging FallFromHeaven with C2C, and Fantasy is just as valid a potential optional exploration as Science Fiction). Might be fun.

other timeline era possibilities for the future.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe

Not to mention all of our previously discussed alternative eras and popular ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_science_fiction :

"Eras
Genres concerning the historical era of creation and publication include:
Cyberpunk—noted for its focus on "high tech and low life" and taking its name from the combination of cybernetics and punk.
Golden Age of Science Fiction—a period of the 1940s during which the science fiction genre gained wide public attention and many classic science fiction stories were published.
New Wave science fiction—characterised by a high degree of experimentation, both in form and in content.
Pulp science fiction
Scientific romance—an archaic name for what is now known as the science fiction genre, mostly associated with the early science fiction of the United Kingdom.
Steampunk—alternate histories in the spirit of Jules Verne, where a Victorian era steam-powered society develops advanced technologies.",

"Combinations
Main article: Genre fiction
Genres that combine two different fiction genres or use a different fiction genre's mood or style include:
Alternate history science fiction—fiction set in a world in which history has diverged from history as it is generally known
Comic science fiction
Science fiction erotica
Adventure science fiction—science fiction adventure is similar to many genres and is emphasized in popular culture (see Romantic Science Fiction and Space Opera)
Gothic science fiction—a subgenre of science fiction that involves gothic conventions
New Wave science fiction—characterized by a high degree of experimentation, both in form and in content
Science fantasy—a mixed genre of story which contains some science fiction and some fantasy elements
Science fiction opera—a mixture of opera and science fiction involving empathic themes
Science fiction romance—fiction which has elements of both the science fiction and romance genres
Science fiction mystery—fiction which has elements of both the science fiction and mystery genres, encompassing Occult detective fiction and science fiction detectives
Science fiction Western—fiction which has elements of both the science fiction and Western genres
Space Western—a subgenre of science fiction that transposes themes of American Western books and film to a backdrop of futuristic space frontiers.",

"Related genres:
Fantasy
Science fantasy
Mystery fiction
Horror fiction
Slipstream fiction
Speculative fiction
Weird fiction
Superhero fiction"
Shouldn't every idea for an Era or favorite story/book/movie has a ongoing and open discussion thread on C2C, and possibly the mod-mod thread for serious inclusion?
Not to mention favorite idea or technology, whether it is likely or possible?
Not to mention explorations of specific works and series. Star Trek, Star Wars, etc.


Glossary of Science Fiction Ideas, Technology and Inventions
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/ctnlistalpha.asp

and
Google this:
"speculative technologies of the future"
and explore, list ideas you like here in this thread. Please, yes this means you who are reading this!

and historical explorations, ideas, and anything else we can dream up, research, extrapolate, and explore to everyone's satisfaction.

I think an idea would be to have toggleable (optional) playable universes such as Star Trek, Star Wars, Bablyon 5, Fantasy(magic), Alternative Earth, Neanderthal/dinosaurs/ extinct animals live longer, Any What-If extrapolation scenarios option(world had no seas, gunpowder not invented, computers invented early(Difference Engine -book), etc.) Time Travel, Actual Historical minor variation (Rhyse) , Popular alternative earth fiction (Harry Turtledove, What Might have been, Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, Cross-Time Engineer (books), type eras/colors to play as game and/or options. Basically being able to select these colors as game options/added random/inserted eras. It need not be more than a grouped/ selectable collection of technologies/units that could be activated/triggered. Not everyone's cup of tea/consensus but explorable/ and on mod-mod modules for those who want them or to work on them. Allows people to explore an add on steampunk or fantasy module, or to turn off prehistoric/future eras for those who want/don't want to explore them. Basically make it easier to make/explore these things.
What do you all think? and Why not?(I've said much of this before here in the Civfanatics/C2C forums multiple times.)

More doesn't have to mean less meaningful. More can mean more in depth or detailed or accurate.
So why not explore/consider these things, or at least open ongoing discussion threads?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think eventually, most of what you said is probably likely to take place RF. But you have to realize, each minor point you just made is another potentially years worth of work to achieve. So if we go about this with all of that on the immediate agenda, we're going to exhaust ourselves. The resistance to the era changes proposed are only one example. Those could be done much faster but the retooling of so many things around that would take a version or three to get us back to being caught up to where we are now. It's likely we'll probably find a point where we're willing to go back and do all that but at the moment, we all have goals and lots of them as it is. A lot of the more fantasy/sci-fi based stuff you mention is probably going to be stuff we'll delve into once we have a fairly complete form of core C2C. I'd like to see a lot of that too... but its enough for me to stay within the framework of known history for now until that side of things is so well developed out we have little more to do with it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am stuck until someone answers my questions, naturally it is AIAndy who is the expert since he is busy with RL . This means that most of what I said I would do for v28 can't be done. Therefore I propose to

• turn off the Story Teller line since I can't get the new missions to work and they need AI.
• turn off the Beacon, Lighthouse and Kelp improvements since the AI and auto build work boats does not build them

 

[rightfuture]

I suggested possibly talking with Maniac, as these features probably came from the Planetfall mod. He said he was open to discussion and using his assets.

 

[rightfuture]

I think eventually, most of what you said is probably likely to take place RF. But you have to realize, each minor point you just made is another potentially years worth of work to achieve. So if we go about this with all of that on the immediate agenda, we're going to exhaust ourselves. The resistance to the era changes proposed are only one example. Those could be done much faster but the retooling of so many things around that would take a version or three to get us back to being caught up to where we are now. It's likely we'll probably find a point where we're willing to go back and do all that but at the moment, we all have goals and lots of them as it is. A lot of the more fantasy/sci-fi based stuff you mention is probably going to be stuff we'll delve into once we have a fairly complete form of core C2C. I'd like to see a lot of that too... but its enough for me to stay within the framework of known history for now until that side of things is so well developed out we have little more to do with it.

I understand, I'm just making suggestions so that discussion and threads could be started with the ongoing intent to work these things out.

Since the prehistoric timeline was adjusted to fit reality and the possibility was just breached to split it up, I thought I would bring the discussion back up. Even if the development is lower on the priority list, figuring it out over months of discussion would at least pin some things down, and would make it easier to brainstorm solutions to some of the obstacles.

Most of this is just a potential roadmap for much further development. I just wanted to get the discussion going and maybe some new threads. For those of us who have time, figuring out the best way to approach these things is not a bad idea. It is a question of priority and time for those who want to work it out.

 

[strategyonly]

i am stuck until someone answers my questions

huh? . . .

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

My questions were:-

1) Why is the mission not showing up for Story Tellers when the lawyer one is for Lawyers?

2) How do I tell, in Python, which property is which since what constitutes a dangerous value is different for each at different techs.

Both are AIAndy's area of expertese.

 

[philipschall]

I'm trying to make a new "expansion" civic group (specifically for GEM). It will impose very harsh limits on the # of cities you can found (not own) in the early era, whereas government civics will just add harsh unhappiness for going over a city limit from cities you may obtain from conquest.

Here's my problem: Let's say the hard settle limit is three, and I already have two cities settled. I have a settler ready to found another, but first I conquer a city. As a result, my settler can no longer settle a 3rd city. Can I get the game to differentiate between a "settled city" and a conquered city, or is this a lost cause?