Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[raxo2222]

Thank you! I'm beginning to not like Modular stuff for Regular buildings. We need to Integrate it into the RegularBuilding xml file and get rid of these Module files. This one you listed is imho not necessary at all. Sorry to say that DH but it's how I see it.



I had not looked at the SVN yet this morning.

What is the reason for Pottery to be in this module? What special condition was added that made it necessary to make a Module?

That module was @Dancing Hoskuld experiment - he didn't want huts, workshops and factories to obsolete.
Instead those buildings can coexist - workshop requires 2 huts and factory requires 2 workshops.
There are beads, toys and few other resource producers with similar structure.
This module is going to be obsoleted by @Thunderbrd way or something like that.

 

[MacCoise]

Do people play with low sea level ?

It seems a bit of cheat where you can get better value out of a smaller map if you know what I mean.

 

[strategyonly]

Do we have a btn/icon for Ivory, cant see it even though it says i discovered it?? i even when into the WB and it didnt show up there either??

 

[raxo2222]

Do we have a btn/icon for Ivory, cant see it even though it says i discovered it?? i even when into the WB and it didnt show up there either??

Are you playing on your own map?
Ivory is manufactured resource. This means some of maps have wrong resources.
It should be Elephant not Ivory.

That is manufactured resources may be placed on some maps as some maps are so ancient, that few resources were changed from map to manufactured resource, as proper map resource was added.

And now I updated maps.
That is someone forgot to convert ivory to elephant resource in scenarios.
You have to start new game.

Also some maps had common clay instead of fine clay - former is manufactured resource and latter one is map resource.

Why no one else reported that in last 5 years?
Did no one played those maps?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I could point out we already have two "SVNs". One just contains all the actual movies rather than static pictures for wonders.

Really? I did not know that.

Not all cities should be able to build lighthouses

Why not? Nearly every coastal city has one.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I already did this, it was in regular buildings file too.
As for module its here: Modules\My_Mods\Bead_Toy_Pottery

The one in the module is probably because it was that way in core and it needed to force some other change on it; ie it is a copy of core with some changes that needed to be overwritten. Most of what was in that module has been moved to core for v38 or v38.5. Only two bits are left in there.

1. bit that "fixes" the supply chain problem. IE when you lose a manufactured resource because you don't get time to build a replacement building before the old building becomes obsolete. I did this by making all not obsolete and reducing the yield/commerce on the old upgrade buildings to match what the older buildings provide.
   
   
2. the trial of reduces the number of the upgrade buildings you can build. In RL not every city can or needs to build a Factory for baskets.

This was not moved into core for last release because TB has an idea on how to do the limiting (2) better and it would mean that (1) is probably not needed either. These are still in the default game as they are in the My_Modules folder where experimental stuff should go.

Why not? Nearly every coastal city has one.

Exactly, not all cities are coastal

 

[raxo2222]

The one in the module is probably because it was that way in core and it needed to force some other change on it; ie it is a copy of core with some changes that needed to be overwritten. Most of what was in that module has been moved to core for v38 or v38.5. Only two bits are left in there.

1. bit that "fixes" the supply chain problem. IE when you lose a manufactured resource because you don't get time to build a replacement building before the old building becomes obsolete. I did this by making all not obsolete and reducing the yield/commerce on the old upgrade buildings to match what the older buildings provide.
   
   
2. the trial of reduces the number of the upgrade buildings you can build. In RL not every city can or needs to build a Factory for baskets.

This was not moved into core for last release because TB has an idea on how to do the limiting (2) better and it would mean that (1) is probably not needed either. These are still in the default game as they are in the My_Modules folder where experimental stuff should go.

Exactly, not all cities are coastal

I fixed first issue by delaying those obsoletions:
Hut obsoletes when Factory is available, Workshop obsoletes when Pepper's Megafactory is unlocked and Factory obsoletes era or two after Megafactory is unlocked.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Exactly, not all cities are coastal

Well I wasn't trying to say they should be built inland... jeez. I was talking about the pop limit of 6 to build them.

 

[MacCoise]

I am trying to work out why I am not getting +1 for the spices (just to left of the city) and the parrots (up two and one square to the right).

I have a route and improvement built......

 

[raxo2222]

View attachment 517888


I am trying to work out why I am not getting +1 for the spices (just to left of the city) and the parrots (up two and one square to the right).

I have a route and improvement built......

Probably you don't have Enable tech for them yet.

Reveal tech for all plants and animals is Gathering/Scavenging.
I don't see road ON that tile left from city, can you send save?

Enable Tech for Parrots is Poultry Domestication and for Spices its Spice Trade.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I fixed first issue by delaying those obsoletions:
Hut obsoletes when Factory is available, Workshop obsoletes when Pepper's Megafactory is unlocked and Factory obsoletes era or two after Megafactory is unlocked.

Still does not fix the problem as the problem is still there. If you don't build a replacement before the old obsoletes then you loose the resource. With some resources this can be very devastating. Mine fixes the problem completely and causes no problems for the AI.

Well I wasn't trying to say they should be built inland... jeez. I was talking about the pop limit of 6 to build them.

nah,nah, you definitely said all cities should be able to build lighthouses

 

[raxo2222]

Still does not fix the problem as the problem is still there. If you don't build a replacement before the old obsoletes then you loose the resource. With some resources this can be very devastating. Mine fixes the problem completely and causes no problems for the AI.

AI now gladly builds building replacements.
As for players they just should sacrifice one city and build all buildings in it if otherwise they don't want to build all buildings.

There is 1420 entries with population requirement.
3 entries require city size of 4 - those are pests most likely.
759 entries require city size of 6.
One entry requires city size of 7 - its Grammaticus.
5 entries require city size of 8.
5 entries require city size of 10.
12 entries require city size of 12.
516 entries require city size of 13.
5 entries require city size of 14.
11 entries require city size of 15.
1 entry require city size of 20 - its Personalized Advertising (Pepper's building).
9 entries require city size of 23.
67 entries require city size of 25.
4 entries require city size of 26.
1 entry require city size of 30 - its Capital Administration.
1 entry require city size of 33 - its Farmscraper III.
7 entries require city size of 40.
1 entry require city size of 42 - its Factory (Gravity Generators)
18 entries require city size of 50.

That is vast majority requires city sizes of 6, 13 and 25.
Notepad++ has nice tricks to find all entries, then you can copy somewhere them to remove tags with repeated entries.

 

[MacCoise]

Probably you don't have Enable tech for them yet.

Reveal tech for all plants and animals is Gathering/Scavenging.
I don't see road ON that tile left from city, can you send save?

Enable Tech for Parrots is Poultry Domestication and for Spices its Spice Trade.

I thought that might be the case but the text really doesn;t give you a clue.

Thanks (just got poultry domestication)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Still does not fix the problem as the problem is still there. If you don't build a replacement before the old obsoletes then you loose the resource. With some resources this can be very devastating. Mine fixes the problem completely and causes no problems for the AI.

As I recall, the problem we identified with the approach you were using is that it requires that the earlier buildings constantly be non-obsoleted so they can qualify you to build the next level up. So the production huts wouldn't ever be able to be removed from the system without causing a prerequisite collapse for the 'shop' or workshop which required 3 huts to build. And the Factories would require 3 workshops and so on. Works fine except doesn't allow for obsoletion to take place.

Or are we talking about a different format here?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

As I recall, the problem we identified with the approach you were using is that it requires that the earlier buildings constantly be non-obsoleted so they can qualify you to build the next level up. So the production huts wouldn't ever be able to be removed from the system without causing a prerequisite collapse for the 'shop' or workshop which required 3 huts to build. And the Factories would require 3 workshops and so on. Works fine except doesn't allow for obsoletion to take place.

Or are we talking about a different format here?

Yep. As Joe says he can make the equivalent of a hut in his back yard for pottery, and I know people who have done likewise for making beads. You will see that sort of thing anywhere you have re-enactment groups for almost any era.

 

[JosEPh_II]

AI now gladly builds building replacements.
As for players they just should sacrifice one city and build all buildings in it if otherwise they don't want to build all buildings.

There is 1420 entries with population requirement.
3 entries require city size of 4 - those are pests most likely.
759 entries require city size of 6.
One entry requires city size of 7 - its Grammaticus.
5 entries require city size of 8.
5 entries require city size of 10.
12 entries require city size of 12.
516 entries require city size of 13.
5 entries require city size of 14.
11 entries require city size of 15.
1 entry require city size of 20 - its Personalized Advertising (Pepper's building).
9 entries require city size of 23.
67 entries require city size of 25.
4 entries require city size of 26.
1 entry require city size of 30 - its Capital Administration.
1 entry require city size of 33 - its Farmscraper III.
7 entries require city size of 40.
1 entry require city size of 42 - its Factory (Gravity Generators)
18 entries require city size of 50.

That is vast majority requires city sizes of 6, 13 and 25.
Notepad++ has nice tricks to find all entries, then you can copy somewhere them to remove tags with repeated entries.

Yes Pests have pop requirements of 4,6,8,10,12,and 14. It used to be 6, 7 and 13. But this caused some real problems when at that time up to 7 pests could be dumped into your city at the required pop level. Players were complaining about level 6 cities dying off to level 5 and then having to regrow back to 6. And with the pop level 6 on sooo many other buildings (750+) it was a major blow to get things built.

As you can see City size 6 was, still is, way over used, 759 entries. And the same for city size 13, 516 enties. All imhpo of course, must have this disclaimer in place nowadays.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yep. As Joe says he can make the equivalent of a hut in his back yard for pottery, and I know people who have done likewise for making beads. You will see that sort of thing anywhere you have re-enactment groups for almost any era.

Ok, so here's the problem with that approach, not ONLY should you not be building 'huts' in a modern first world city no matter how small the city is, and local workshops are completely obsolete for most goods (not all, no, but are you going to ever go to a local rope maker?) but the real problem is that once you HAVE any of these sources of the manufactured resource, you don't NEED to have the more advanced version to provide for your resource needs. If we had more volumetric resources then we could probably have higher population soaking more resources and thus you would need the additional resources that the greater buildings would provide (and they should provide more than one to cover the other cities that then need them.

This method might work with further consideration, part of which is to allow the names of these buildings to change as eras advance, because I find it thematically disrupting to still have huts in the Transhuman era.

I wonder if at certain size junctures, a city could be made to generate an autobuilding that reduces all of your manufacturable resources by one... hmm...

Yes, I have a whole 'nother plan here but it may not work as well as making a few tweaks and adaptations to this model you have here. That and I have a lot of plans for a lot of things so everything being a project, solutions that I don't have to take months to install should be helpful to getting things done.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ok, so here's the problem with that approach, not ONLY should you not be building 'huts' in a modern first world city no matter how small the city is, and local workshops are completely obsolete for most goods (not all, no, but are you going to ever go to a local rope maker?) but the real problem is that once you HAVE any of these sources of the manufactured resource, you don't NEED to have the more advanced version to provide for your resource needs. If we had more volumetric resources then we could probably have higher population soaking more resources and thus you would need the additional resources that the greater buildings would provide (and they should provide more than one to cover the other cities that then need them.

This method might work with further consideration, part of which is to allow the names of these buildings to change as eras advance, because I find it thematically disrupting to still have huts in the Transhuman era.

I wonder if at certain size junctures, a city could be made to generate an autobuilding that reduces all of your manufacturable resources by one... hmm...

Yes, I have a whole 'nother plan here but it may not work as well as making a few tweaks and adaptations to this model you have here. That and I have a lot of plans for a lot of things so everything being a project, solutions that I don't have to take months to install should be helpful to getting things done.

All the more advanced buildings provide in my version is more yield/commerce. You never have the problem of the manufactured bonus going missing just because you forgot to upgrade.

And yes "huts" equivalent are built in the real world, now. In the 18th Century. In the 16th Century, and there is even some evidence for earlier. These "huts" produce at the top and bottom of the quality range.

If you don't like the the "huts" find another. I don't like the term "criminals" to refer to state built units and suggested an alternative that was rejected.

Yes you can have a building that produces -1 of a resource but it would mean that you would have to have lots of cities since each city can only produce one of each manufactured good at the moment.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I assume you have seen this. It is a plot improvement that acts like it is part of a city. In particular it is a Port District and allows a city that is one plot from a coast to build naval units.

 

[Yudishtira]

My take on slavery is that it should not be totally preventing you from access to resources. Rather I suggest it should be making the buildings in question drastically more expensive, and reducing their yields (also drastically).

The first can already be done - there are many buildings which make later ones cheaper, and the modifier appears to be an integer one, so I'm guessing it could also be negative.

The second (buildings reducing the yields on other buildings) apparently cannot be done at present, but isn't it about time that changed? I have a feeling many many things could be done better were such a mechanism available.

If that cannot be done in the short term, how about a new negative pseudoresource, Slaves, that you get from the worldview, and that has no effect other than to reduce the yields on the requisite buildings.