Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

Yes you can have a building that produces -1 of a resource but it would mean that you would have to have lots of cities since each city can only produce one of each manufactured good at the moment.
This, I believe, is untrue. If two buildings have a resource they make, and the city builds them both, does not the city create 2 of that resource then? Just as if you have one building produce 3 of the resource, just as is done for Hit Musicals etc...?
All the more advanced buildings provide in my version is more yield/commerce. You never have the problem of the manufactured bonus going missing just because you forgot to upgrade.
While that's good, it makes the sense of building the more advanced versions seem lacking in critical need. Additionally, in RL, if a furniture factory is built, it certainly did not require that there were any local level or smaller level manufacturers in the country, and in fact the reality is that the larger factory level manufacturer is making the smaller ones unable to compete and thus putting them out of business or at least making them operate on hairswidth profits if at all. As a boardgame designer, I could never have manufactured the games from my garage and made a profit. I could've manufactured them there with a little overhead but people don't want to spend $60 on a boardgame they've never heard of when they can get a Hasbro boardgame with massive name recognition for $5. The reason for this is larger operations can spit out a lot more product with a much lower price per unit. So what happens is eventually all the little businesses get shut down by the larger ones and before you know it there are no more mom and pop operations successfully going anywhere except as hobbies. Thus, while this system does work to address a game problem, it runs a little counter to reality, where modern industry jumps right over any need to build up to larger operations and dives into the most cost per unit effective solution they can regardless of the massive overhead it requires - they have it to invest or they don't do it at all. All that said, I like the elegance as a game solution so I'm not really fighting that implementation or arguing against it, just discussing a problem it seems to present with realworld modeling.
And yes "huts" equivalent are built in the real world, now. In the 18th Century. In the 16th Century, and there is even some evidence for earlier. These "huts" produce at the top and bottom of the quality range.
In what cultures? Ones that could be said to not have modern tech? If you're trying to say this is the level of the independent entrepreneur, I get it, but a format to adjust the name as it goes would still be a helpful addition if we're going to go this route. Yes, "hut" implies prehistoric - at least Ancient.
I don't like the term "criminals" to refer to state built units and suggested an alternative that was rejected.
You must understand that a Black Ops operative does all they can to be indistinguishable from a normal criminal. That's how they do what they do. So if you name them different, it just becomes a tell that it wasn't a random local 'barbarian' criminal but was instead a state operative that just did something to you or that you are now looking to arrest.

Urban Black Ops units perform crimes in other nations on behalf of their nation and whether they work for another nation or not doesn't change the fact that they are still professional criminals. Trying to make a divide there only complicates things for law enforcement effects and so on.

I get that it would be nice to have your criminals be unable to spread crime in your own cities - if AIAndy's system was more agile I could do something about that and maybe eventually I may yet figure out a way to implement that, but the whole category should also represent the hidden operatives in your own communities that are spying on crime operations and must perform crimes of their own in the process to do so - would be good if those crime sources were lessened, and I do eventually have a promotion in mind for those types that would reduce their crime.

I knew a guy that was hanging around in drug circles and informing the cops about everything he witnessed. To do it effectively, he had to be as much a criminal as the people he was spying on. I knew another that was doing the same for the FBI, spying on scam operations. He had to be the biggest scammer among them and indeed he was a scammer before he was enlisted for this role as an alternative to prison once he was arrested (same story for the previous example with the drug informant).

This is where most 'black ops' agents are generated - they are found doing the same thing as they are sent to do for the government, being a criminal.

The only difference is that they work for the state and not just for themselves, and they aren't always sent to other nations to do it. Not to say that doesn't happen a lot too.

In C2C, under Hide and Seek rules, one of the best ways to get visibility on very skilled criminals at being hidden is to send in a criminal of your own. Some levels of invisibility can only be countered by an observant criminal. Of course, it's not totally necessary to do that because effective investigations will bring any criminal to be revealed eventually, but if you really want to know what's going on, the most effective criminal spotters are criminals themselves.

Those operatives that work for the CIA, however, are spies. Not the independant criminal contractors that the CIA often employs, the ones that are on the actual official payroll. Highly professionally trained and not at all inclined to a life of crime, but purely a life of advanced and specialized espionage. Due to this advanced training, they aren't there for simple roles like spreading crime somewhere or supporting a drug ring or learning about the seedy underbelly of an opponent nation and all its weaknesses that creates, no... they are specifically infiltrating state offices. And in a lot of ways they are better at it because they cannot be seen at all - but they can be caught and they aren't combat capable when they are. They are civilians, after all.
 
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My take on slavery is that it should not be totally preventing you from access to resources. Rather I suggest it should be making the buildings in question drastically more expensive, and reducing their yields (also drastically).

The first can already be done - there are many buildings which make later ones cheaper, and the modifier appears to be an integer one, so I'm guessing it could also be negative.

The second (buildings reducing the yields on other buildings) apparently cannot be done at present, but isn't it about time that changed? I have a feeling many many things could be done better were such a mechanism available.

If that cannot be done in the short term, how about a new negative pseudoresource, Slaves, that you get from the worldview, and that has no effect other than to reduce the yields on the requisite buildings.

Like it! Also I think all software buildings should reduce the cost for future software buildings of the same Type.
 
Like it! Also I think all software buildings should reduce the cost for future software buildings of the same Type.

Makes sense to me. How hard would it be to install the mechanism for this? It's a bit weird that every city would develop its own gesture recognition software for instance.
 
Makes sense to me. How hard would it be to install the mechanism for this? It's a bit weird that every city would develop its own gesture recognition software for instance.
I am not sure but isn't it just a tag on the building? Some of the Myths (built only in one city) reduce the cost for other buildings in every city.

Having "Gesture Recognition Software" give a boost to itself should make each new one less costly.
 
Makes sense to me. How hard would it be to install the mechanism for this? It's a bit weird that every city would develop its own gesture recognition software for instance.
Doesn't hypothetical lifeforms speed up terraforming buildings?
I guess same tag could be used, just directed on building itself.
 
Makes sense to me. How hard would it be to install the mechanism for this? It's a bit weird that every city would develop its own gesture recognition software for instance.
One way would be to give them all a specialbuildingtype designation and use the tag that adds to the production % when such specialbuildingtypes are being constructed.
 
Doesn't hypothetical lifeforms speed up terraforming buildings?
I guess same tag could be used, just directed on building itself.

Oh yeah, of course. But one thing I'm not sure about is whether these effects stacks if they come from the same building type. Anyone know?
 
Question Why have the upgrade cost from going from an Enforcer to Town Watchman been jacked up again? Same for Wise Woman to Sheperd(?). These costs are way out of line. It is easier to build new units than to upgrade. Yet Wise Woman to Healers is in line with other unit upgrade costs. Makes no real sense to me.

And if the upgrade costs are even somehow aligned with Handicaps and Game Speeds these are still out of line.

Have they been over costed from the recent recosting? It's just not right at all.
 
Question Why have the upgrade cost from going from an Enforcer to Town Watchman been jacked up again? Same for Wise Woman to Sheperd(?). These costs are way out of line. It is easier to build new units than to upgrade. Yet Wise Woman to Healers is in line with other unit upgrade costs. Makes no real sense to me.

And if the upgrade costs are even somehow aligned with Handicaps and Game Speeds these are still out of line.

Have they been over costed from the recent recosting? It's just not right at all.
I was fixing errors in building costs back then.

Unit upgrade cost depend on difference between cost of old and new unit, there may be flat multiplier to that difference.
Handicaps doesn't scale costs of units for players but do for AIs, this means AIs will spend less money on upgrades (much less on highest handicaps).

As for game speed scaling is completely flat - that is if Normal has everything 1x, then Long (or other speed after normal) has everything on 2x.
This means you will spend more money on upgrading on slower speeds as units (buildings and techs too) are more expensive.

So if certain upgrades are now more expensive, then probably units were moved from each other.
 
I was fixing errors in building costs back then.

Unit upgrade cost depend on difference between cost of old and new unit, there may be flat multiplier to that difference.
Handicaps doesn't scale costs of units for players but do for AIs, this means AIs will spend less money on upgrades (much less on highest handicaps).

As for game speed scaling is completely flat - that is if Normal has everything 1x, then Long (or other speed after normal) has everything on 2x.
This means you will spend more money on upgrading on slower speeds as units (buildings and techs too) are more expensive.

So if certain upgrades are now more expensive, then probably units were moved from each other.

The cost of these units I mentioned are severely out of line for All comparable units of the same timeframe in the game no matter the GS or HC or combo of these 2.
 
The cost of these units I mentioned are severely out of line for All comparable units of the same timeframe in the game no matter the GS or HC or combo of these 2.
Handicaps doesn't change costs of units, techs and buildings for players only for AI so its irrelevant here.
Speed is linear scaling when comes to unit costs.

On Normal (1x):
Enforcers (42) -> Town Watchmen (165) = 123 gold to upgrade.
Wise Woman (18) -> Shepherd (68) = 50 gold to upgrade.
Wise Woman (18) -> Healer (42) = 24 gold to upgrade.

For other speeds scale them by scale factor.
GameSpeed - Total turns - Scale factor
Ultrafast - 500 - Normal*0.25 - THIS SPEED IS FOR TESTING PURPOSES ONLY
Blitz - 1000 - Normal*0.5
Normal - 2000 - Normal*1
Long - 4000 - Normal*2
Epic - 6000 - Normal*3
Marathon - 8000 - Normal*4
Snail - 12000 - Normal*6
Eons - 16000 - Normal*8
Eternity - 20000 - Normal*10

Globals doesn't scale upgrade costs, but units are 5% more expensive (25% cheaper with Size Matters) than their baseline.

So some upgrades were already more expensive to upgrade than others depending on location of unit and its upgrade in tech tree (this dictates cost).
Is that you can get 1.5x (or other number smaller than 2x) more gold reserves and gold per turn, but unit upgrades cost 2x more on Long speed compared to Normal?

There may be something COMPLETELY unrelated to scaling:
Someone, who moved techs in Xgrid (and units by proxy) probably failed to recost units according to those guidelines.
That is some of them may be too cheap/expensive according to their combat category.
 
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according to their combat category.
That's what I was thinking probably took place. If they were moved and only given their base values that could have a more severe noticeable result in cost differentials between unit upgrades.
 
That's what I was thinking probably took place. If they were moved and only given their base values that could have a more severe noticeable result in cost differentials between unit upgrades.
I guess i can readjust those four units (themselves and their upgrades) Joseph reported where needed.
Someone could forgot sign when readjusting units too.

Only Town Watchmen costed bit too much.
I can shave off that 5 in unit globals so unit cost are unchanged by globals without SM.
 
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Current game is Emperor on Marathon, Updating an Enforcer to TW cost 497 Gold. Upgrading a Wise Woman to Healer is 91 gold. But upgrading a Wise Woman to a Shepherd is 198 gold. Upgrading an Archer to Composite Bow is 210 gold for comparison.

I'll make a list of others and post them here later.

Now I understand the difference of playing on Marathon vs Normal vs Long. Remember I've dealt with these issues before. So I'm not a newbie to this party raxo.

Finally, As for SM getting a huge discount to units' cost ( 70% vs 105%). That's just totally unfair and imho uncalled for. Then add in all the quirky benefits of SM over standard C2C military play, seems the field is a bit tilted don't you think?
 
Current game is Emperor on Marathon, Updating an Enforcer to TW cost 497 Gold. Upgrading a Wise Woman to Healer is 91 gold. But upgrading a Wise Woman to a Shepherd is 198 gold. Upgrading an Archer to Composite Bow is 210 gold for comparison.

I'll make a list of others and post them here later.

Now I understand the difference of playing on Marathon vs Normal vs Long. Remember I've dealt with these issues before. So I'm not a newbie to this party raxo.
TW was actually bit too expensive.
Wise Woman and Shepherd have correct price.
There is almost one era between those two units.
Upgrade cost depend on cost of old and new unit, so units that are far away from each other in tech tree will be more expensive to upgrade.

Property units are usually far from each other when it comes to upgrades, this means their upgrade cost will be pretty large - that is slightly less than it takes to produce new unit.
That is if old unit costs 10:hammers: and new unit costs 100:hammers:, then upgrade cost will be 90:gold:

Also baseline costs production costs increase very sharply in Prehistoric era.

Maybe @Thunderbrd could dampen upgrade costs somewhere by changing code, so units with distant upgrades doesn't have gold cost almost equal to production cost.
Or just reducing unit upgrade cost modifier could do trick.
 
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Finally, As for SM getting a huge discount to units' cost ( 70% vs 105%). That's just totally unfair and imho uncalled for. Then add in all the quirky benefits of SM over standard C2C military play, seems the field is a bit tilted don't you think?
It's not unfair or uncalled for if you understand the reason for it. In SM, your defenses don't stand a chance against incoming heavily merged units if you don't have the ability to train heavily merged defenses as well. For this reason, you must have more time(or rather, cheaper units) to train your basic defenses up to a degree where they can be effective.

This can mean that a city guarded by 2 archers in a normal game would need to be guarded by at least 6 (2 merged) archers in an SM game to have any kind of equivalent defense capacity.

Multiply that by the number of cities and then again by the number of eras (representing how many times you can merge the units til they cap out) and you can see why you must have a LOT more units being trained in an SM game.

The ultimate potential of an attack force is also so much higher (stronger/more powerful) that if you don't get more units out of the time you have to train, you're just choosing to attack with less than an optimal amount to succeed with and that can be a huge waste.

As the game goes on, it gets impossible to judge how much you'll REALLY need because it's impossible eventually to send capped out merged units even with this cost reduction. But at least it helps to compensate for the fact that you need a lot more units to be successful in SM. Ironically, you ultimately need far fewer actual units in the game, but you need to train far more.

The field is already tilted by the nature of the way SM plays and needs this as a counterbalance that a non-SM game does not require.
 
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TW was actually bit too expensive.
Wise Woman and Shepherd have correct price.
There is almost one era between those two units.
Upgrade cost depend on cost of old and new unit, so units that are far away from each other in tech tree will be more expensive to upgrade.

Property units are usually far from each other when it comes to upgrades, this means their upgrade cost will be pretty large - that is slightly less than it takes to produce new unit.
That is if old unit costs 10:hammers: and new unit costs 100:hammers:, then upgrade cost will be 90:gold:

Also baseline costs production costs increase very sharply in Prehistoric era.

Maybe @Thunderbrd could dampen upgrade costs somewhere by changing code, so units with distant upgrades doesn't have gold cost almost equal to production cost.
Or just reducing unit upgrade cost modifier could do trick.

We have Watchers that come in at Deception, then Enforcers come in at Conduct. Which is a relatively short span of gameplay turns and Tech tree positioning compared to the span between Enforcers and Town Watchmen(who enter at the Tech Dualism in Ancient era). This creates, by the very upgrade costing process, a wide difference in the scaling of upgrade costs. Either Enforcers need to come in later in the Preh Era, or TW come in earlier in the Ancient Era.

My observation and opinion is that Enforcers should come into play After Tribalism Tech is reached and Chiefdom would seem to be an ideal launching spot for this level of LE unit. The gap between Enforcer and TW would be shortened while the short gap between Watcher and Enforcer would be widened. And in the process help smooth out the upgrade costing scaling/progression

EDIT: As it currently stands (even with these small adjustments by raxo) is it is cheaper in cost to build New TW and then just send the old Enforcers out to the New cities on the frontier. Although this action involves much more clicks in a turn from all the movement involvement. And the AI, will they do the same?
 
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