Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[VCrakeV]

I believe this has been mentioned before, but production merchants are broken with "unlimited units" on. When hovering the cursor over the option, a tooltip says that some units are still limited. Why aren't production merchants included in this group of always limited units?

Currently, I'm playing on epic (6000 turns), and early merchants cost 83 production. However, they provide 99 production. This means that if you build/train 6 merchants, queue unlimited merchants, and use those 6 merchants on the city producing merchants, you'll get 7 back (plus extra, if the city's base production is high enough). So, assuming the city's base production is 83 (for simplicity), the process looks like this (number of merchants, arrows represent a change of turn):

1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 8 -> 10 -> 12 -> 15 -> 18 -> 22 -> 27 -> 33 -> 40

So, in 15 turns, we have turned 1 merchant into forty. If we had just produced buildings or other units, we would have, after 15 turns, 15×83 or 1245 production worth of units/buildings. However, 40 merchants provide a total of 3960 production; we have created a surplus of 2715 production in 15 turns! That's almost 200 production per turn, on average; and if we keep going, the ratio of surplus production to initial production only increases.

So, perhaps these units should be exceptional to the "unlimited units" option. Or, we could just drop its production yield to match its production cost.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I believe this has been mentioned before, but production merchants are broken with "unlimited units" on. When hovering the cursor over the option, a tooltip says that some units are still limited. Why aren't production merchants included in this group of always limited units?

Currently, I'm playing on epic (6000 turns), and early merchants cost 83 production. However, they provide 99 production. This means that if you build/train 6 merchants, queue unlimited merchants, and use those 6 merchants on the city producing merchants, you'll get 7 back (plus extra, if the city's base production is high enough). So, assuming the city's base production is 83 (for simplicity), the process looks like this (number of merchants, arrows represent a change of turn):

1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 8 -> 10 -> 12 -> 15 -> 18 -> 22 -> 27 -> 33 -> 40

So, in 15 turns, we have turned 1 merchant into forty. If we had just produced buildings or other units, we would have, after 15 turns, 15×83 or 1245 production worth of units/buildings. However, 40 merchants provide a total of 3960 production; we have created a surplus of 2715 production in 15 turns! That's almost 200 production per turn, on average; and if we keep going, the ratio of surplus production to initial production only increases.

So, perhaps these units should be exceptional to the "unlimited units" option. Or, we could just drop its production yield to match its production cost.

Something isn't right about the returns after they were recosted. They should never be able to give more than they cost to train. Perhaps part of it has something to do with the production modifiers in the city applying to overflow as if the overflow is base production and its getting time to address that somehow (been a problem since vanilla IIRC).

 

[JosEPh_II]

Something isn't right about the returns after they were recosted. They should never be able to give more than they cost to train. Perhaps part of it has something to do with the production modifiers in the city applying to overflow as if the overflow is base production and its getting time to address that somehow (been a problem since vanilla IIRC).

We would not have this problem if the option Unlimited Units was "removed".

 

[Thunderbrd]

We would not have this problem if the option Unlimited Units was "removed".

Opinion noted. I disagree.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Opinion noted. I disagree.

I knew you would. But I said it anyway.

 

[Snofru1]

Call me stupid but I still haven't understood what the value of the new Seasonal Camps is. Does it mean you can make resources with them visible that normally cannot be seen because the technology for them is not there yet? Or won't you see any resources now unless you build successful Seasonal Camps? The 1st way I would never build them, I would either improve the ground with something that gives much better yields which I can change when the resource becomes visible anyway. The other way would mean I should always build them.

In other words, I haven't understood the concept. Can you elaborate?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I knew you would. But I said it anyway.

Truth is, I plan to change merchants so they don't actually give anything they don't take from somewhere else anyhow. So they are just becoming a transportation of goods rather than potentially the generation of goods. There should be NO reason to limit them at that point and so I'm trying to figure out where we have problems now if they ARE unlimited.

Call me stupid but I still haven't understood what the value of the new Seasonal Camps is. Does it mean you can make resources with them visible that normally cannot be seen because the technology for them is not there yet? Or won't you see any resources now unless you build successful Seasonal Camps? The 1st way I would never build them, I would either improve the ground with something that gives much better yields which I can change when the resource becomes visible anyway. The other way would mean I should always build them.

In other words, I haven't understood the concept. Can you elaborate?

Aside from +1 commerce, giving us, finally, an improvement that gives +1 Commerce as opposed to just one for food (seed camp) and one for production(stone tools), since commerce may not seem as valuable to some, and since it's a seasonal home for your people, they spend time there and investigate the area by nature of living there regularly. As a result, when worked, it has a chance to create a bonus on that plot from among the types of bonuses you have revealed on the map. It's a small chance but the most open ended chance for just about any resource type that you can get in the game. If one is already there but you can't see it, nothing would be discovered until you find the tech that reveals what's already there. It can actually make a resource be there that wasn't previously defined on the map.

 

[Snofru1]

OK, thanks, I see clearer now. Can it be built anywhere, also in places where nothing could be built, at least for a while in the game?

The other thing is, one commerce is not too bad very early in the game. But when I can build e.g. lumberjacks they give more than just one production (I think) and they also give the chance to find a resource that didn't exist on this plot. The seasonal camp would be very weak in comparison then.

And another issue: Improving by just one commerce means that the city will not work this tile automatically in many cases so the main goal, finding resources, will never be achieved. I can do this by hand, but what about the AI?

 

[BlueGenie]

So the Seasonal Camps are a bit like having people work enough on the plot to get the expertise needed to create something that then acts as a resource?
Like for instance the Wheat resource (and Potatoes, and Rice, Squash, and so on) shouldn't actually BE a resource, at least not early on, as it's made, manufactured, by people once they are settling and doing the common genetic modification by selective breeding. Meaning any farm could get the resource the farms in that area are focusing on producing at some point, as long as the climate on the plot suits the resource.
I think those Seasonal Camps, in that case, should be limited to non-mineral resources. Plants and animals only, and really only to those the player has access to already. The Scandinavia Natives, Samer, used reindeer a lot, and would create several resources of reindeer but would, especially as it's in snowy lands, never develop elephants in their area.
But as you can't transpose iron or obsidian or gold as a plot resource, only as manufactured goods, Seasonal Camps shouldn't be able to suddenly "find" such a resource. (Stone should be a lot more common though.)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Can it be built anywhere, also in places where nothing could be built, at least for a while in the game?

Raxo set it up and I think he had that intention but I'm not sure.

The other thing is, one commerce is not too bad very early in the game. But when I can build e.g. lumberjacks they give more than just one production (I think) and they also give the chance to find a resource that didn't exist on this plot. The seasonal camp would be very weak in comparison then.

I think if we do this right, there will need to be some ways that it quickly improves, just like stone tools and wood collectors. Seed camps probably need some steps where they improve a bit too to keep pace there - they massively jump up at farms but maybe they can get a tech based increase or two along the way to balance them out as well.

Raxo is designing this with some input and I have some faith in his ability to consider these kinds of details but they are good to bring up to discuss for sure!

And another issue: Improving by just one commerce means that the city will not work this tile automatically in many cases so the main goal, finding resources, will never be achieved. I can do this by hand, but what about the AI?

If I'm not mistaken, the AI may well see a commerce as equivalent to any other yield and that's about all it looks at for value to make plot working choices. There's a bit more to it and the possibility of finding resources may weight the AI measure a touch - maybe we'll need to tweak the code to take it more fully into account but his initial tests suggests they aren't too bad with it right now. Of course, it shouldn't become the overwhelming choice either and perhaps the best case would be if the preferred improvements get a little weight based on flavors and the leader preference as well. There's certainly some room for refinement I believe.

So the Seasonal Camps are a bit like having people work enough on the plot to get the expertise needed to create something that then acts as a resource?

More that your tribe lives here at certain times of the year and in doing so and spending intimate time there as their home they may notice that some things are available here that can be helpful that they didn't notice before.(Possibility of revealing resources)

It is a place where they spend time observing the world around them and learning about it as they play and enjoy life - which the scientists are saying took place more back then than it does in modern society, which is a debateworthy subject but in general, they live and play here. And in so doing they explore their place in the world (+Commerce).

Like for instance the Wheat resource (and Potatoes, and Rice, Squash, and so on) shouldn't actually BE a resource, at least not early on, as it's made, manufactured, by people once they are settling and doing the common genetic modification by selective breeding. Meaning any farm could get the resource the farms in that area are focusing on producing at some point, as long as the climate on the plot suits the resource.
I think those Seasonal Camps, in that case, should be limited to non-mineral resources. Plants and animals only, and really only to those the player has access to already. The Scandinavia Natives, Samer, used reindeer a lot, and would create several resources of reindeer but would, especially as it's in snowy lands, never develop elephants in their area.
But as you can't transpose iron or obsidian or gold as a plot resource, only as manufactured goods, Seasonal Camps shouldn't be able to suddenly "find" such a resource. (Stone should be a lot more common though.)

Because they are living here, they discover things that exist there naturally. They aren't planting or placing, they are discovering what they were initially overlooking.

 

[raxo2222]

Raxo set it up and I think he had that intention but I'm not sure.

I think if we do this right, there will need to be some ways that it quickly improves, just like stone tools and wood collectors. Seed camps probably need some steps where they improve a bit too to keep pace there - they massively jump up at farms but maybe they can get a tech based increase or two along the way to balance them out as well.

Raxo is designing this with some input and I have some faith in his ability to consider these kinds of details but they are good to bring up to discuss for sure!

They can be placed on any land tile.
Peaks - you need unit with mountaineering or have researched Mountaineering tech.

Also probability of resource discovery is 4x higher than most of other improvements - - most of them have 10000 (1 in 1000 per turn per resource independently) , and seasonal camp has 2500 - (1 in 2500 per turn per resource independently - there are almost 100 land resources, but not all of them are available - they are revealed gradually).
So this means much more resources will be discovered by them than by other improvements.
On Normal if you are at two turns per tech pace, then you may have discovered 5 - 10 new resources by end of Prehistoric area.

Since cities take time to fill all land plots you can dedicate 5 - 10 tiles to seasonal camps per city easily.
They can be built outside of borders too.

 

[Snofru1]

Since cities take time to fill all land plots you can dedicate 5 - 10 tiles to seasonal camps per city easily.
They can be built outside of borders too.

I thought the tiles need to be worked to be able to find a resource. So how does it help to build many camps when you can only work 1 or 2 of them (prehistoric towns are small), or even build them outside the fat cross?

Edit: I just read over at Discord that the resources can be found even when the tiles are not worked. Ok, now I think this is really a cool new addition to C2C!

 

[Snofru1]

Peaks - you need unit with mountaineering or have researched Mountaineering tech.

My work mules definitely can't build them on peaks (before Mountaineering).

 

[raxo2222]

My work mules definitely can't build them on peaks (before Mountaineering).

Do you have latest SVN?
Upload save.

Also you can build early mountain mines on peaks ONLY if resource is present on them.

 

[Snofru1]

Yes, latest SVN, and I know about the early Mountain Mines.
In the attached save there is only one unit active: A work mule on a Peak and it can't build anything.

Added later: I just updated to today's SVN version and I still can't build Seasonal Camp on a peak.

BTW: I also don't see that they add culture...

 

[VCrakeV]

On the topic of seasonal camps, which SVN were they introduced in? I don't have access to them.

 

[Toffer90]

Seasonal camps cannot be built on peaks, it is currently impossible to design an improvement in xml that can be placed on both peaks and non-peak land plots.
Just as it's always been impossible to define an improvement that can be placed on both water plots and land plots through xml alone.

Mountain Mine (not the early one) should be able to discover any peak valid resources.

 

[VCrakeV]

Seasonal camps cannot be built on peaks, it is currently impossible to design an improvement in xml that can be placed on both peaks and non-peak land plots.
Just as it's always been impossible to define an improvement that can be placed on both water plots and land plots through xml alone.

Mountain Mine (not the early one) should be able to discover any peak valid resources.

If we want seasonal camps on peaks, can't we just make a second improvement, "seasonal camp (peak)"?

 

[raxo2222]

Yes, latest SVN, and I know about the early Mountain Mines.
In the attached save there is only one unit active: A work mule on a Peak and it can't build anything.

Added later: I just updated to today's SVN version and I still can't build Seasonal Camp on a peak.

BTW: I also don't see that they add culture...

In latest SVN they do, but this doesn't work for already placed seasonal camps.
Also on peak there must be some resource for early mountain mine.

This is intentional, that you can't place early mountain mines without resources.

 

[raxo2222]

If we want seasonal camps on peaks, can't we just make a second improvement, "seasonal camp (peak)"?

Its possible to make second improvement for that, but they don't want it lol