Caveman 2 Cosmos

[jmmendesp]

@StrategyOnly I know it is late but here is what happened for v24 release. It took a couple of hours and I may have lost or misplaced a few changes.

Thanks!

 

[gdambrauskas]

I just had a guy in a different thread ALMOST say the same thing, but he did even know about ALL the options C2C has, or for that matter how to use them., again ie: the BUG Option, didnt even know how to use it and what it was for.

Once i informed him about around OVER 100 options that you can change ingame or every turn (if he wanted to) all he was concerned about again was the buildings, and i showed him how to HIDE them or HIDE the units etc. and he was amazed then.
Didnt hurt Paris Hilton or Kim Kards , ,n, did it!!

I am aware of most of the options and filter, it's all great. Problem is, i tried ~7 mp games in ~1 year, not one was playable. 1-2 hours late, the game starts crashing and burning. It wastes my time and all the friend's time; i gather everybody to try 'new cool mod' and few hours later it's unplayable. I could live (help to change) unbalanced things etc, but the stability of the game makes me stay away.
I guess it works with single player games, but is there a single person playing c2c mp games, who was able to play for 30-40 hours(very doable with AND mod) single mp game?
Another big gripe with me is all the new mechanics that AI does not know how to use, but i could live with that.
ps: i've been playing rom/and for 4 years, so i am familiar with knobs and options. Right now fixing AND stuff that isn't that great and using that as a base for my mp games.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am aware of most of the options and filter, it's all great. Problem is, i tried ~7 mp games in ~1 year, not one was playable. 1-2 hours late, the game starts crashing and burning. It wastes my time and all the friend's time; i gather everybody to try 'new cool mod' and few hours later it's unplayable. I could live (help to change) unbalanced things etc, but the stability of the game makes me stay away.
I guess it works with single player games, but is there a single person playing c2c mp games, who was able to play for 30-40 hours(very doable with AND mod) single mp game?
Another big gripe with me is all the new mechanics that AI does not know how to use, but i could live with that.
ps: i've been playing rom/and for 4 years, so i am familiar with knobs and options. Right now fixing AND stuff that isn't that great and using that as a base for my mp games.

But if people don't provide the save games and OOS logs how is anyone to know there are problems let alone fix them. There was a MP thread dedicated to fixing problems but I think it was never "stickied" so has disappeared. There are people playing MP fine or at last as far as we can tell they are playing it fine.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I am aware of most of the options and filter, it's all great. Problem is, i tried ~7 mp games in ~1 year, not one was playable. 1-2 hours late, the game starts crashing and burning. It wastes my time and all the friend's time; i gather everybody to try 'new cool mod' and few hours later it's unplayable. I could live (help to change) unbalanced things etc, but the stability of the game makes me stay away.
I guess it works with single player games, but is there a single person playing c2c mp games, who was able to play for 30-40 hours(very doable with AND mod) single mp game?
Another big gripe with me is all the new mechanics that AI does not know how to use, but i could live with that.
ps: i've been playing rom/and for 4 years, so i am familiar with knobs and options. Right now fixing AND stuff that isn't that great and using that as a base for my mp games.

This mod should be currently far more stable than AND ever has been unless Afforess cleaned up over there recently. Most of our MP problems stemmed from what we inherrited there, and most have been resolved as of now. However, AIAndy and Koshling are exceedingly capable programmers, probably some of the best that donate their efforts to this site anywhere (a LOT more professionally skilled than I, that's for sure).

And so far, they have both been more than willing to fix (rather quickly in fact) problems that arise in MP, provided that the problem is reported with the proper logs uploaded (and its really quite easy to set up logging.) Such fixes usually come within days and are then pushed to the SVN so I recommend SVN access and maintaining feedback with the team throughout the whole of your game. Let us know EVERY problem you face and you'll be a playtesting hero for not only yourself but for other players to follow.

One of the biggest problems that caused OOS errors recently did take a bit to resolve and I think its been fixed recently. It had to do with the new pathing Koshling installed that quite often would attempt to path through enemy territory when open borders were not possible. This caused an OOS for us everytime it did that and we learned to be more careful, but recently, he fixed the underlying issue. I'm not sure he even realizes the effect of solving the problem will be having on the stability of MP games but I'm extremely thankful that he did solve it much for that reason.

My wife and I play MP pretty much exclusively. More problems will be resolved only with more playtesting and reporting and we've made a lot of headway but still need help identifying the issues themselves.

Morale of the story: PLEASE do not stay silent with the team as you encounter errors of any kind! Let us know so we can FIX it! The team is extremely active and is here to support which is more than you can say for most mods on the site!

 

[Hydromancerx]

Here is an excerpt from another Mod forum on a C2C discussion. I thought the team might want to read it and consider what others are saying about the mod and their perception to C2C's implementation.


This post was a general summation to the preceding posts in that forum.

Maybe it's time to step back and take an overall look to see if there is still a common goal for C2C? And possibly get some of the loose ends tied down? Or has the mod lost it's way? It would seem that some of the onlookers think so.

JosEPh

The stuff he is complaining about ate the reasons why I love C2C. The fact the game is being developed and we are experimenting is a good thing. Sure some day we may have a stable version but that's the nature of the mod. If they want a version that doesn't chnage then don't use the SVN or don't get the new versions each month.

Having it constantly updating is a good thing in my option. We can quickly fix bugs and constantly tweak things to be better. Also not everything changes all the time. We still stumble upon artifacts from RoM/AND in which people complain "why is this that way?" When really we just have never got around to changing it.

As for too much content, ha! That's funny. That person should go play RoM/AND instead if they think there is too much content.

Like SO said there are so many things to customize that there are some things I did not realize we had that were left over from RoM/AND or are so new that I have not even tried them yet. And I work on the mod!

More buildings, civics, techs and wonders and new ones coming in every version is what I like most about this mod. You can't please everyone. People who want less would perhaps be happier with RoM or AND or another mod that isn't adding anymore.

Exactly. That is one of the core features of C2C. To add more to the game. Which is really the reason I started modding was to add more and to add the stuff I wanted that Afforess would not put in RoM/AND. If you don't like more content then this is not the mod for you.

I have been noticing this trend for a little while. Many people have said that C2C is unstable, incomplete, or otherwise flawed, on other forums that I read. Many of us modders don't pause to walk in the shoes of an 'average' user, who doesn't understand everything we have, as SO says. However, the complaint that there is no stable version is unfortunately true. I don't remember the last SVN that had no bugs, and certainly we've had several botched releases lately.

My solution to this would be to spend an entire release cycle focusing on tying up loose ends. Our natural instinct is "more more more", but we sometimes need to pause and let stability catch up to our efforts. So, I propose that from the start of the pre-V25 freeze until the release of V26, we focus our efforts on stability and balance, and getting rid of some loose ends (future techs, disease, pollution).

We are the most popular mod on CFC, but we could have so many more users if we stopped and spent a month or so making things stable again. Multi-Maps can wait, they will bring so many loose ends with them. For now, I would like to see us step back and spend some time making the mod as polished as we can. It will pay dividends in the long term, and will set the stage nicely for Multiple Maps, the largest (IMO) undertaking so far in CIV 4 modding.

1. C2C is made for a more skilled player. It always has been since RoM/AND was that way too. C2C has added so much so it takes a hardcore civ4 player to really get the most out of the game. If Civ5 is for casual gamers then C2C is for hardcore gamers. Ones who like micromanaging, building, and deep strategy.

2. What's wrong with pollution? It is currently working as it should. And disease is almost ready to be added fully.

3. Are we really the most popular? I thought Realism Invictus or Fall From Heaven or even RoM/AND were more popular. I know we are the biggest but only because we combine so much stuff.

 

[strategyonly]

Changes to v 24 out, thx to DH:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11690815&postcount=185

 

[AIAndy]

But if people don't provide the save games and OOS logs how is anyone to know there are problems let alone fix them. There was a MP thread dedicated to fixing problems but I think it was never "stickied" so has disappeared. There are people playing MP fine or at last as far as we can tell they are playing it fine.

Indeed, I have not gotten any OoS reports for months. Of course part of that is because few people play it in multiplayer because of the long, long time it takes to play.
I am still happy to apply fixes to ensure MP compatibility but that is not possible without reports that include OoS logs.
The C2C DLL source code consists of about 330.000 lines of code with an additional 90.000 lines of code in Python written by many different programmers over the years.
It is impossible to find any bug in there without knowing exactly where you have to look either by a detailed bug report, a minidump or especially debugging a savegame that reproduces the bug.

I have been noticing this trend for a little while. Many people have said that C2C is unstable, incomplete, or otherwise flawed, on other forums that I read. Many of us modders don't pause to walk in the shoes of an 'average' user, who doesn't understand everything we have, as SO says. However, the complaint that there is no stable version is unfortunately true. I don't remember the last SVN that had no bugs, and certainly we've had several botched releases lately.

My solution to this would be to spend an entire release cycle focusing on tying up loose ends. Our natural instinct is "more more more", but we sometimes need to pause and let stability catch up to our efforts. So, I propose that from the start of the pre-V25 freeze until the release of V26, we focus our efforts on stability and balance, and getting rid of some loose ends (future techs, disease, pollution).

We are the most popular mod on CFC, but we could have so many more users if we stopped and spent a month or so making things stable again. Multi-Maps can wait, they will bring so many loose ends with them. For now, I would like to see us step back and spend some time making the mod as polished as we can. It will pay dividends in the long term, and will set the stage nicely for Multiple Maps, the largest (IMO) undertaking so far in CIV 4 modding.

The last release was too rushed, had no real freeze period and there were deployment problems.

Still, I don't think spending an entire cycle on bug fixes will help much as it will just as likely burn out modders. I can understand that some people fear that at some time C2C development will just stop but unlike AND we have a modding team instead of relying on just one person and in the past we had periods of higher and lower activity and when one modder needs some time off, another takes up the slack.

Given the highly experimental viewport code and the deep changes that replacing the pathfinder and reading the XML from caches brought, there have been few crash reports.
And the viewport code will also help a lot with the many crashes from overloading the graphics engine on low end machines.

Nonetheless there is of course the option to use release branches on the SVN to get a more stable version. It requires some discipline by the modders and a bit of extra effort and a second local working copy but that might be worth it. Here is how it works:
When the freeze period starts, you create a new branch on the SVN. The freeze only applies to the new branch so new features after that are only added to the trunk.
If you fix something, you apply the change to the release branch and then merge it into the trunk. That way the trunk gets fixes and new features, the branch only gets the fixes. After a week, you release the branch version and also release patches for it whenever an important fix gets in. At the beginning of the next freeze period, the old release branch is abandoned (but continues to exist) and the game starts anew with a new release branch created from trunk.

 

[bill2505]

I have been noticing this trend for a little while. Many people have said that C2C is unstable, incomplete, or otherwise flawed, on other forums that I read. Many of us modders don't pause to walk in the shoes of an 'average' user, who doesn't understand everything we have, as SO says. However, the complaint that there is no stable version is unfortunately true. I don't remember the last SVN that had no bugs, and certainly we've had several botched releases lately.

My solution to this would be to spend an entire release cycle focusing on tying up loose ends. Our natural instinct is "more more more", but we sometimes need to pause and let stability catch up to our efforts. So, I propose that from the start of the pre-V25 freeze until the release of V26, we focus our efforts on stability and balance, and getting rid of some loose ends (future techs, disease, pollution).

We are the most popular mod on CFC, but we could have so many more users if we stopped and spent a month or so making things stable again. Multi-Maps can wait, they will bring so many loose ends with them. For now, I would like to see us step back and spend some time making the mod as polished as we can. It will pay dividends in the long term, and will set the stage nicely for Multiple Maps, the largest (IMO) undertaking so far in CIV 4 modding.

i agree

 

[dusckr87]

My solution to this would be to spend an entire release cycle focusing on tying up loose ends. Our natural instinct is "more more more", but we sometimes need to pause and let stability catch up to our efforts. So, I propose that from the start of the pre-V25 freeze until the release of V26, we focus our efforts on stability and balance, and getting rid of some loose ends (future techs, disease, pollution).

I never do this, but:
+1

 

[ls612]

1. C2C is made for a more skilled player. It always has been since RoM/AND was that way too. C2C has added so much so it takes a hardcore civ4 player to really get the most out of the game. If Civ5 is for casual gamers then C2C is for hardcore gamers. Ones who like micromanaging, building, and deep strategy.

2. What's wrong with pollution? It is currently working as it should. And disease is almost ready to be added fully.

3. Are we really the most popular? I thought Realism Invictus or Fall From Heaven or even RoM/AND were more popular. I know we are the biggest but only because we combine so much stuff.

1. Yes, I agree, C2C is designed for skilled Civ players. However, I don't think we should be expecting everyone who plays to be as skilled in technical issues as we are. That is what I was trying to get at with increasing our player base, that stability will attract more people. I am not suggesting that we make the mistake AND made and stop adding things, but it would be an equally big mistake not to make the mod stable enough for people who are not as technically minded.

2. Oh, my bad. Sorry I missed the implementation of that, there was so much stuff happening. I also think that AIAndy is right about new features, if they aren't game-ready, we should make a branch for them.

3. We have not been on the center stage for long, but in terms of daily viewership we either meet or exceed FfH and RI currently. Sometimes Rhyes gets more views than us, but for now we are most likely the most popular mod.

Maybe we don't need a full release of stability focus, but a two-week freeze may not be that bad, considering what needs fixing. Currently, I think that the following things are the most glaring incomplete features/bugs that I'd like to see fixed before V25.

• Viewports (I think that the only real issue left with those is the revealed-tiles bug, but I haven't tested it for a while now)
• Future Techs (That I will devote a few days to cleaning these up when I get back)
• Disease (Don't know how that is going to work, but if it isn't release-ready, we should branch it, as AIAndy said)

That and stability would be nice, so that for once we can have a more stable release.

 

[Azurian]

I dont want to create an uneccesay thread, where can i post the Futuristic Civics concepts i have?

 

[ls612]

I dont want to create an uneccesay thread, where can i post the Futuristic Civics concepts i have?

Talk to CIVPlayer8 about that, he is sort of the new civics guy.

 

[Hydromancerx]

2. Oh, my bad. Sorry I missed the implementation of that, there was so much stuff happening. I also think that AIAndy is right about new features, if they aren't game-ready, we should make a branch for them.

Well after the freeze I would like to start adding various Diseases like we have crimes. This should help the over abundance of and . Note it was suppose to go in this cycle but the whole MrAzure and team stuff got out of hand and took much of my time and motivation.

 

[Crusis]

I just had a guy in a different thread ALMOST say the same thing, but he did even know about ALL the options C2C has, or for that matter how to use them., again ie: the BUG Option, didnt even know how to use it and what it was for.

I'm pretty sure there are myriads of key commands I don't know. I do know that <S> doesn't sentry units in my game, it seems to do something else entirely. So the commands from the vanilla game have clearly changed.

A sticky post with a command list would be an awesome asset for this mod. Sort of like the cheat sheet many games include in the box. I could certainly use a cheat sheet, and it would give people an opportunity to print out and explore their options in the mod. This game wouldn't be as fun without the BUG options.

 

[ls612]

When I get back, I'm going to write up some New Concept pages for C2C, so that people can see ingame how a lot of our stuff works. The things that need write-ups are;

• Viewports
• Crime
• Pollution

If there are any other things that people think could use explanation in the pedia, please tell me.

Also, could someone who knows Python please explain how the Global Warming system works with ori's new code? He said when he committed it to 'read the python code' to see what it did, but I don't know Python, so someone's help on this would be nice. Thanks.

 

[ls612]

I have a question here for anyone technically minded. I am getting very close to getting a new modding machine, and it is coming down to a choice between a comp with an Intel i7 Sandy Bridge (3610 or 3612) and integrated graphics, or a comp with an AMD A8 Next Gen (2.8 Ghz) with discrete graphics. The question is, which of these would be better for C2C, as well as better overall?

 

[Koshling]

I have a question here for anyone technically minded. I am getting very close to getting a new modding machine, and it is coming down to a choice between a comp with an Intel i7 Sandy Bridge (3610 or 3612) and integrated graphics, or a comp with an AMD A8 Next Gen (2.8 Ghz) with discrete graphics. The question is, which of these would be better for C2C, as well as better overall?

The Intel without a doubt. AMD Piledriver architcture has lousy single-threaded performance, which is crucial for C2C. However if you can wait a month or so i7 Ivybridge has MUCH MUCH better integrated graphics core than i7 Sandybridge.

 

[ls612]

The Intel without a doubt. AMD Piledriver architcture has lousy single-threaded performance, which is crucial for C2C. However if you can wait a month or so i7 Ivybridge has MUCH MUCH better integrated graphics core than i7 Sandybridge.

Hm, that could be an issue, as the main reason I'm upgrading now is that I want to have Windows 7, and not be stuck with Windows 8 if that flops. I don't want to risk the Ivy Bridge not coming into my price range before Windows 8 launches.

 

[Koshling]

Hm, that could be an issue, as the main reason I'm upgrading now is that I want to have Windows 7, and not be stuck with Windows 8 if that flops. I don't want to risk the Ivy Bridge not coming into my price range before Windows 8 launches.

Well, you migth need to spend an extra $70 on a low end discrete grahpics card then. Sandy IGP might well be enough for C2C, so going that way with the fallback of spending $70 or so on a card is one possibility.

BTW - having played with Windows 8 a bit here I can say that I will likely be upgrading to it - in desktop mode it's really just a nicer Win 7. You don't have to use the metro UI.

 

[ls612]

Well, you migth need to spend an extra $70 on a low end discrete grahpics card then. Sandy IGP might well be enough for C2C, so going that way with the fallback of spending $70 or so on a card is one possibility.

BTW - having played with Windows 8 a bit here I can say that I will likely be upgrading to it - in desktop mode it's really just a nicer Win 7. You don't have to use the metro UI.

Well, the whole question is a moot point I just realized; the i7-3610QM is an Ivy Bridge proc it turns out. I will definitely be getting the option with that processor now.