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Caveman 2 Cosmos

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by strategyonly, Aug 25, 2008.

  1. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Chieftain

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    What is the reasoning behind certain buildings requiring that slavery not be active? I could understand this requirement for something like a labor union building, but all I've come across for this so far (late medieval) are various mill buildings (like donkey mill) and steel smelter (by the way, it doesn't show any other requirements; does it not require any resources?).
     
  2. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    The gameplay reason is that slavery needs to be nerfed (which is fair enough). The realism reason is that these labour-saving buildings were never built (never economically feasible) when slave labour was so readily available.

    It is absolutely unforgivable and unplayable imo in the case of the Steel Smelter, because it makes Crucible Steel an empty tech, and because neither rationale justifies depriving you of a resource. Same goes, much later, for the Factory, which deprives you of dozens of resources once their earlier source buildings obsolete (as well as preventing you from making most of the 20th century's advances). I've begged for the buildings to be made more expensive and have their yields drastically reduced by slavery instead, but no-one wants to make the change.

    ETA: The file is here:
    Assets/Modules/Custom_World_Views/Slavery/zDepend_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml
    It is safe to delete the file, or just the buildings you don't agree with.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
    raxo2222 and VCrakeV like this.
  3. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Steel smelter requires iron ingots and (char)coal.

    @Dancing Hoskuld wanted realism, but yeah I agree blocking those buildings is way too far.
    Steel by itself isn't critical resource before Industrial era.
    Most of those buildings and units can use other resources anyway.

    As for factory there is ordnance like kill-switch building called "Emancipation Proclamation", that nukes all worldviews (so AI can shut down worldviews as AI is too dumb to build units for specific special actions).
    This building is buildable before you unlock factories.

    Steel smelter by itself has low productivity.
    It could have -20 gold with Slavery active.

    As for factory, if it was buildable with slavery active then I could retire kill-switch, but AIs is too dumb to know, that there are units, which can build ordnances or shut worldviews.
    It has production modifiers - without power and separate with power - removing modifier could be tricky.
    -60 to production modifier and -100 gold flat could be good alternative to blocking of building when slavery is active.
     
  4. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Chieftain

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    Going on a tangent here, but can the AI recognize that certain units can create worldviews (but not that others can abolish them)? And do they know to send them to the capital to do so?
     
  5. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    AI recognizes that, problem is with building unit to do special actions.
    That is AI doesn't know, that unit X can be built to do action Y (mostly placing buildings).

    Otherwise AI could build multiple tamed animals of each kind to boost new city for example (as extra company to property control, anti-animal patrol and workers together with settler).
    Or it would build food/production caravans.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  6. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Sorry but I disagree strongly. Crucible Steel was added when it was because for realism reasons, steel is vital at that time. I guess you mean it's not critical gameplay-wise, but imo that's another bug, because it should be.
    Um yeah don't remind me...:p
    The AI seems to need it, but I think it's vital that players and AIs have the option to keep slavery going as long as they can stand the various disincentives. Which means that the disincentives should not include depriving them of resources AT ALL.
     
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  7. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Yeah, I meant gameplay-wise as all units, that require steel are Clockpunk or are buildable in Industrial and later eras on earliest tech unlock.
    Buildings require other metal wares as alternative to steel wares - very few of them needs steel wares exclusively.

    So late medieval/renaissance units should use steel too it seems.
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I agree. Adjust the factory rather than ban it. It's too resource generation critical.
    Agreed.
     
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  9. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    There is nice tag used by wonders.
    Code:
    <GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces>
                   <BuildingExtraCommerce>
                       <BuildingClass></BuildingClass>
                       <CommerceType></CommerceType>
                       <iExtraCommerce></iExtraCommerce>
                   </BuildingExtraCommerce>
               </GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces>
    
    This is used by wonders to globally adjust :gold::culture::science::espionage:.
    Can be extended so it can modify :food::hammers::commerce::gp: too?

    Also version that uses modifiers not just flat adjustment could be made.

    If I used it on regular building X, and change was coming from wonder, then each regular building would have modified output if wonder is present.

    Spoiler :

    Civ4BeyondSword 2019-04-29 22-16-06-61.jpg Civ4BeyondSword 2019-04-29 22-16-01-13.jpg Civ4BeyondSword 2019-04-29 22-15-46-41.jpg


    Code:
            <!-- Severe penalties if slavery is active -->
            <BuildingInfo>
                <Type>BUILDING_STEEL_MILL</Type>
                <AndDependencyTypes>
                    <DependencyType>BUILDING_STEEL_MILL</DependencyType>
                </AndDependencyTypes>
                <GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces>
                    <BuildingExtraCommerce>
                        <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_WV_SLAVERY</BuildingClass>
                        <CommerceType>COMMERCE_GOLD</CommerceType>
                        <iExtraCommerce>-20</iExtraCommerce>
                    </BuildingExtraCommerce>
                </GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces>
            </BuildingInfo>
            <BuildingInfo>
                <Type>BUILDING_FACTORY</Type>
                <AndDependencyTypes>
                    <DependencyType>BUILDING_FACTORY</DependencyType>
                </AndDependencyTypes>
                <GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces>
                    <BuildingExtraCommerce>
                        <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_WV_SLAVERY</BuildingClass>
                        <CommerceType>COMMERCE_GOLD</CommerceType>
                        <iExtraCommerce>-100</iExtraCommerce>
                    </BuildingExtraCommerce>
                </GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces>
            </BuildingInfo>
        </BuildingInfos>
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  10. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Is there a GlobalBuildingExtraYields?
    That's what it would take. Rather than add another tag, I've been considering getting rid of this one and using autobuildings that are given to all cities for all global effects. It might be a little slower but I THINK it's a little more memory efficient since it doesn't require a whole new tag.

    BTW, I do think it's more important to mute the benefits of the building rather than making it more costly. I'm not sure how I can rationalize it being more expensive, but the concept that it doesn't help as much if you have slavery in place does make sense to me.
     
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  11. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Such tag doesn't exist.

    GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces is used by 157 wonders and two regular buildings, that i added tag in module.
    It was either vanilla tag, or added long ago as even vokayra wonders have this tag.

    So for example there would be one autobuilding for SlaveryFactory, other building for Slavery+Smith, third for something else and so on?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  12. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Warlord

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    Or you could just force Slavery off when you get the tech that allows that resource. You would have to make the "start slavery" action obsolete with that tech. It is not intended to be a viable World View past a certain tech anyway.
     
  13. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Well I did something similar: instead of tech there is building called Emancipation Proclamation, it shuts all worldviews.
    This tech is right before factories are unlocked.

    Now slavery doesn't block factories and steel smiths anymore, just makes them expensive to run.

    I don't think you can obsolete unit actions, just that sometimes don't appear when should when you have "hide obsolete unit actions" or something like that in BUG settings.
     
  14. Niveras

    Niveras Chieftain

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    What about having two buildings? You'll have the main building, the one that is currently banned while slavery is active. Add a second one that is:
    - more expensive
    - less productive (and/or with other malus)
    - still provides the resource
    - available at the same tech
    - replaced by the equivalent "No Slavery" building
    - only buildable with Slavery active (worldview slavery in city?)

    In this way, you have an equivalent building that can be built while slavery is active, but if you don't have slavery, this weaker and more expensive equivalent building is replaced by the completely superior non-slavery building. Possibly, you could have the slavery-enabled building only buildable while the city has worldview slavery present?

    As for the other resources, is there a reason they out-and-out obsolete at the factory tech, as opposed to just being replaced? Wouldn't that allow you to research the tech without those buildings simply vanishing? Does it cause issues with AI?

    As for making slavery less viable as you progress, perhaps add further maluses to it, and reduce the output of its specialists, at the capstone/era change techs? Sort of the opposite of how higher tourism, education, etc autobuildings open up with new eras. I'm concerned this might be somewhat hidden from the player, though. While the adjustments would be listed in the tech, there won't be any easy way of communicating to future players that slavery becomes less and less productive (or has more and more negatives) unless they read through the era techs closely. I suppose it could be mentioned as part of slavery's strategy text in the pedia.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  15. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Well Factory is indirect requirement for several tens if not few hundred of buildings.
    Directly it is required for 20 or so buildings.
     
  16. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Warlord

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    They are mission outcomes and you can obsolete outcomes. If there are no valid outcomes the mission does not show. There are some quite complex ones in Custom_World_Views. You can even have an outcome replace others.
     
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  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    We have players, including myself, that feel that's not very realistic. There are numerous factions alive today that not only fought hard to keep it from ending, they also would fight for its return and do all they can to bring it back. I'm not sure why we should treat it as something that would face an inevitable end when it was actually unlikely to have ever been abolished and took a lot of lives laid on the line to achieve it.

    Also, if you obsolete the ability to turn slavery on, will that somehow obsolete slavery for those who still have it?

    All of this sounds fairly reasonable at first glance.
     
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  18. Niveras

    Niveras Chieftain

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    Probably the ideas that there are increasingly negative autobuilds with each era while slavery is active, or reductions in slave specialist output, still have merit.

    However, I did not consider that the factory building itself is a prerequisite for other buildings, so having an alternative building to replace the factory wouldn't be very helpful unless you went and added that secondary building as a possible prereq in the same place as the factory. But the point of the factory substitute was to have it meet the factory-requirement with lower economic benefits. It would not make sense to have this slave!factory open up normal!factory prereqs; these subsequent buildings would end up needing slave equivalents of their own. Which would be far too much work to accommodate a mechanic that is already very desirable because it is strong. If this were a more commercial project, you could consider such deep alt-building slave path as an alternative progression of technology/economy, but as it stands I would not recommend it for C2C.
     
  19. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Warlord

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    Personally I feel that having to choose between steel and slavery is a good thing. You can have one or the other but not both.

    Just as it should be that you have lacquer ware or glass ware not both. At least until the modern era and Chemistry.
     
  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Why should slavery not be possible throughout the modern and future eras as well though? And why would slavery keep us from having access to any given material resources? I mean... much of the point of slavery is to provide any known resources.
     

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