Caveman 2 Cosmos

[pepper2000]

I think it's little coincidence that formal chattel slavery came to an end in the industrializing world quite rapidly, by C2C timelines, in the 19th century. As an economy becomes more mechanized and automated, work becomes more skilled and technical in nature. I suppose we could imagine slaves running a turn-of-the-20th century assembly line, where work is rote and can be done by any able-bodied person, but I cannot imagine slaves having the technical capabilities to run a modern manufacturing plant.

On the consumption side, a modern economy needs a large, middle-class base with disposable income to create the demand needed for major industrial production. Widespread use of slavery would preclude this.

Some historians argue that in ancient Greece and Rome, the prevalence of slavery, and the fact that the elites generally did not have to work, caused disinterest in investing in new technology or mass production. Hence these societies never industrialized despite having the population and resource base to do so. I'm not sure how convincing this theory is, but it's out there.

With C2C, we like to take a broad view of what is possible, especially in the future eras, so I would support mechanisms to allow slavery to coexist with advanced technology and production, despite my doubts that such a society could actually function. But with the use of penalties, such as harsh autobuilds, that would strongly discourage the player from continuing with slavery into the Industrial Era.

 

[raxo2222]

Well it is still happening in the UK today. People who want to enter the UK illegally pay smugglers lots of money to get here. When they do manage to enter the UK, they find that they are not free and have to work for the smugglers (as slaves) for very little.

I think this is covered by crime autobuilding - Human Trafficking or something like that.

With C2C, we like to take a broad view of what is possible, especially in the future eras, so I would support mechanisms to allow slavery to coexist with advanced technology and production, despite my doubts that such a society could actually function. But with the use of penalties, such as harsh autobuilds, that would strongly discourage the player from continuing with slavery into the Industrial Era.

Well you could run entire game on starter civics, just game would be bit slower especially on beginning.
Some yields would be more affected than others.
Military stuff also would be weakened.

 

[Anq]

Latest SVN, Playing Complex Traits with developing leader and start with no positive traits, having selected Progressive, Medical, and Negotiator, I found myself in trouble getting different great people other than doctors.
I got my first GP doctor at turn 218 in prehistoric era thanks to free specialists from Progressive. After ranking up to have Medical, I got 5 doctors at turns 308, 345, 375, 401, and 423, to trigger GAs spanning 49 turns in total, before entering classical era at turn 443. For the upcoming GP I have focused on prophets from the beginning, and with State Church civic, I can have 20+ prophets in this city each turn. However, the probability of getting the great prophet versus doctor is still 1 to 19. I don't get it. The Medical trait only contributes +2 doctor points, and while sometimes the governor appoints one doctor (1 max), that is mere 5 points for a great doctor, versus more than 60 for a prophet. I have this snapshot just to show the 5%-95% probability breakup.

In another game, having chosen Spiritual early gave me an unstoppable streak of great prophets and created an ever-lasting GA. I did avoid choosing civics that grant unlimited prophets (Divine Cult, State Church), but rather chose Caste System so all my cities focused on engineer specialists. Still never did a great engineer come out. Would there be anything wrong with the free GP points given by the Complex Traits? Just assuming. I know nothing about modding, in particular how these trait-attributes are defined, probably in an XML that is accessible?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Latest SVN, Playing Complex Traits with developing leader and start with no positive traits, having selected Progressive, Medical, and Negotiator, I found myself in trouble getting different great people other than doctors.
I got my first GP doctor at turn 218 in prehistoric era thanks to free specialists from Progressive. After ranking up to have Medical, I got 5 doctors at turns 308, 345, 375, 401, and 423, to trigger GAs spanning 49 turns in total, before entering classical era at turn 443. For the upcoming GP I have focused on prophets from the beginning, and with State Church civic, I can have 20+ prophets in this city each turn. However, the probability of getting the great prophet versus doctor is still 1 to 19. I don't get it. The Medical trait only contributes +2 doctor points, and while sometimes the governor appoints one doctor (1 max), that is mere 5 points for a great doctor, versus more than 60 for a prophet. I have this snapshot just to show the 5%-95% probability breakup.

In another game, having chosen Spiritual early gave me an unstoppable streak of great prophets and created an ever-lasting GA. I did avoid choosing civics that grant unlimited prophets (Divine Cult, State Church), but rather chose Caste System so all my cities focused on engineer specialists. Still never did a great engineer come out. Would there be anything wrong with the free GP points given by the Complex Traits? Just assuming. I know nothing about modding, in particular how these trait-attributes are defined, probably in an XML that is accessible?

Possible there could be a bug. It's something to investigate and audit.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Rambling on captives.

The intent has always been to adjust this so that when you get the correct tech and have the correct diplomatic agreements that instead of just getting a captive you get a prisoner instead. A prisoner retains all the promotions of the captured unit plus some way of knowing who they were captured from and what unit they were. This would open up all sorts of diplomatic options plus some interesting usage options. This is stalled. It needs

• need a generic prisoner unit which can have all possible promotions so that it does not automatically loose them
  
• when a unit is captured it is converted to a prisoner with the extra info including level, exp, type of unit, previous owner, loyalty to previous owner
• diplomatic agreements for prisoners of war being treated differently to criminals or slaves.
• national policy on same
• way to exchange prisoners or ransom them or repatriate them at the end of a war

Early on, up until some time in the middle ages, almost all units include some civilian (or slave) non-combatants in the unit. When you capture a unit it is more likely that it is these people you capture simply because they are non-combatants. These would still be captives.

Eventually you may sign a diplomatic agreement about not attacking civilians or health support. This can be done by making those units a special type of "invisible" so that they don't get in the way of the war.

Slaves to Servants.

I was going to do a big ramble on service but I'll leave that for elsewhere.

Should support slaves (ie health, military, education, entertainment and anti-crime but not commerce, general or production) automatically become servants in a city when you build the Servants Quarters? Servants being somewhere between slave and specialist in yield. New captives would then be able to become these new servants or slaves (commerce, general or production).

The Great Wall

I can't remember if we fixed this so that

1. on the turn it is created all barbarian units are expelled from the nation
2. after that no barbarian can cross the border either way (although perhaps there needs to be a slight chance for singleton units and small group units).
   
3. if the border expands 1 occurs but only for the new territory.

If 1 & 2 are done then we can reintroduce the Slave and Serf Revolts.

 

[Thukew]

Not sure where this should go, but...I started a game with the latest SVN, and the reduced city growth (increased food requirement) is crippling my game. I'm playing on Noble, standard sized C2C_World map. The slow growth is having knock-on effects that have slowed down research and made it much more difficult to complete some quests. The stable-building quest, for example, can only be done with cities of a certain size, and my cities now take so long to grow that I almost didn't complete it in time. I've been scooped on Great Wonders much more frequently than usual as well, though I understand that some leaders are more Wonder-focused than others and that could be the luck of the draw (I'm up against Suleiman, Montezuma, and Louis XIV).

Please put it back the way it was. Maybe make a slider/setting for people who want to slow down city growth. I read, but don't understand, the rationale in changelog update 10516. It seems counter-intuitive to the idea of growing a civilization, especially when other avenues (such as making many cities) are already penalized.

/End rant, and thanks for listening

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I've been playing a v10561 game through the first third of the Ancient era, and have a few observations/suggestions for what they are worth. The game is Standard/Long, starting on Immortal and increased to Diety on T100. Among other options, I have Increased Production Costs, and I'm using PPIO.

1. I really like the increased food growth costs, as it feels more reasonable to not have double-digit cities in the Prehistoric era. However, the slower growth does seem to have some impact on properties, especially Crime and Disease. Because growth is slowed, Crime and Disease from population is slowed even as I am able to build related buildings at the same pace. The result is that I've never had any problem with Crime or Disease - indeed, I'm able to control these properties without ever deliberately building related buildings or units to combat these properties. Also, it might be worthwhile to reconsider the city size thresholds for both buildings and pests, since it will take much longer now to reach size 6 in particular.

2. From the late Prehistoric onwards, I feel like I'm swimming in gold, with a per-turn rate of +40 to +70 without building any particular gold-related buildings. I find gold is a real problem in the first two-thirds of the Prehistoric era, but about the time I started building new cities my gold problem disappeared. I haven't even bothered building any of the big gold-related buildings like Jewelry Store or Beadmaker's Hut anywhere other than my capital - I probably could have +120 a turn if I put my mind to it. It just feels like there are too many buildings that give gold, especially buildings (like the Farm/Camp sets) that have a different primary purpose - i.e. if I build lots of food-related buildings to increase growth, I unintentionally end up boosting gold production as well. I feel like if I want more gold, I should have to spend turns building gold-centric buildings, as opposed to increasing gold production incidentally.

3. Given how easy it is to gain happiness, especially once I hit Trade and Carnival-related buildings, I found the city limits in the Government civic to be fairly trivial. After Trade, I could have settled four cities over the 5 city limit and easily absorbed the 16 unhappiness penalty, and with a bit of work could have absorbed more unhappiness. I'm not a fan of the world filling up in the early Ancient era, so for me at least stronger city limits (both lowering the number of cities and/or increasing the unhappiness penalty) would be appreciated.

4. I found the AI to be quite good at founding cities, even forward settling me, but I also noticed that they have several dozen Training Dogs and Log Rams/Battering Rams, which seems a bit unbalanced.

5. The Writing tech can have a big influence on one's science production, with everything it obsoletes, especially as I aggressively hunt in the early game. Would it be possible to move the obsolescence of Knowledge Inheritance and Elder Council at least to a different tech. I like, for example, how the Stone Tool Builder gradually loses its bonuses, as opposed to all at once.

6. For subdued animals, would it be possible to show the buttons for everything they can possibly be used for, not just myths/stories, even if the tech for those options hasn't been researched yet? I find myself constantly checking the Civilopedia to see if a certain animal should be saved for a Herd later or used for a Myth now.

7. I find workers are really quick once the bonuses from tech start adding up - would it be possible to increase the base time of actions like the various roads a bit at least? I find my workers rapidly run out of things to do, especially now that city growth is slower and thus it takes longer for cities to increase the number of tiles they are working.

 

[SteelSterling]

How do I culture to upgrade my leader? Currently, when I hover over my flag, it states: "875720 +3 million, Next level at 0 + 56 million, Still requires -875720." Using SVN 10563

 

[SteelSterling]

Was clockpunk removed at some point? I just realized none of my cities are able to build the units yet they did before. They're not even showing as an option to build.

 

[raxo2222]

Was clockpunk removed at some point? I just realized none of my cities are able to build the units yet they did before. They're not even showing as an option to build.

There is clockpunk tech, did you research it first?
Someone could build clockpunk culture giving wonder before you.
You could lose city with that wonder too.

 

[SteelSterling]

There is clockpunk tech, did you research it first?
Someone could build clockpunk culture giving wonder before you.
You could lose city with that wonder too.

No, I didn't lose any cities. I researched it and built a couple of units. I'm getting ready to invade another civ and wanted the tanks and just realized they're all gone.

 

[raxo2222]

No, I didn't lose any cities. I researched it and built a couple of units. I'm getting ready to invade another civ and wanted the tanks and just realized they're all gone.

Looks like weird bug, upload save.
Or you traded away clockpunk culture.

 

[Anq]

Possible there could be a bug. It's something to investigate and audit.

Watching GP (doctor) progress: (No specialist)
Turn 452 - 50557
Turn 453 - 52365 (+1808)
Turn 454 - 0 (A great doctor born, entering golden age)
Turn 455 - 1808 (After I destroy other cities and it grows 1 pop)
Turn 456 - 3616
Turn 457 - 5424

On the contrary, the great prophet progress: (~30 specialists)
Turn 452 - 2099
Turn 453 - 2185
Turn 454 - 0
Turn 455 - 89
Turn 456 - 157
Turn 457 - 207

The above demonstrates that:
1. No. of GP already born doesn't seem to affect the rate.
2. Doesn't matter if in golden age or not.

Not yet tested a fresh game, it isn't likely the rate starts so high, it somehow builds up to this stage.


In my other game (the Spiritual game I mentioned), a city goes on a curious path -
Great prophet progress:
Turn 450 - 79733 _____; 6 priests, 1 engineer
Turn 451 - 79848 (+115); 7 priests, 1 engineer
Turn 452 - 79999 (+151); 7 priests, 1 engineer
Turn 453 - 80202 (+203)

 

[Tajo]

The AI is doing much better at this point

Any chance for a new version then since the V38,5 AI city management often breaks completely in later game stage?

 

[Yudishtira]

No, I didn't lose any cities. I researched it and built a couple of units. I'm getting ready to invade another civ and wanted the tanks and just realized they're all gone.

Do you have resource depletion? If the city that built the culture loses its improved vicinity Sulphur (even temporarily by pillage or natural disaster etc.), the culture will go inactive.

 

[Thunderbrd]

How do I culture to upgrade my leader? Currently, when I hover over my flag, it states: "875720 +3 million, Next level at 0 + 56 million, Still requires -875720." Using SVN 10563

Ignore the still requires over a million... I need to rework the math there a bit. Just look at how many millions you currently show you have vs how many you need.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Watching GP (doctor) progress: (No specialist)
Turn 452 - 50557
Turn 453 - 52365 (+1808)
Turn 454 - 0 (A great doctor born, entering golden age)
Turn 455 - 1808 (After I destroy other cities and it grows 1 pop)
Turn 456 - 3616
Turn 457 - 5424

On the contrary, the great prophet progress: (~30 specialists)
Turn 452 - 2099
Turn 453 - 2185
Turn 454 - 0
Turn 455 - 89
Turn 456 - 157
Turn 457 - 207

The above demonstrates that:
1. No. of GP already born doesn't seem to affect the rate.
2. Doesn't matter if in golden age or not.

Not yet tested a fresh game, it isn't likely the rate starts so high, it somehow builds up to this stage.


In my other game (the Spiritual game I mentioned), a city goes on a curious path -
Great prophet progress:
Turn 450 - 79733 _____; 6 priests, 1 engineer
Turn 451 - 79848 (+115); 7 priests, 1 engineer
Turn 452 - 79999 (+151); 7 priests, 1 engineer
Turn 453 - 80202 (+203)

Without labeling the numbers more clearly I can't follow what you're tracking.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Any chance for a new version then since the V38,5 AI city management often breaks completely in later game stage?

It's on the SVN. There are still too many imperfections for a new version release at the moment.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@raxo2222

Jokes aside modifiers from buildings still overpower modifiers from civics/traits/property pseudobuildings.

This is always going to be the case and should not be seen as something to correct. A given building should not be much more powerful than a potential civic or trait and so on but buildings are many. Those selections are few.

 

[raxo2222]

@raxo2222

This is always going to be the case and should not be seen as something to correct. A given building should not be much more powerful than a potential civic or trait and so on but buildings are many. Those selections are few.

So how strong building and wonder modifiers influence should be compared to civic/trait/property pseudobuilding modifier influence?
So if latter is +50% total, then former can be +200%?