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Caveman 2 Cosmos

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by strategyonly, Aug 25, 2008.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Still working on acknowledging that too but that's nother discussion ;)
    I'm not stating it is, just stating that it doesn't seem to be logical.
     
  2. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    You would have to study mathematics behind it.
    All modern physics seems to be like that - mathematics and experiments check out with high precision and accuracy.
    We are used to Newtonian world - low velocities, relatively large sizes and masses.

    If you are bored you can read wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics
    I'm sure you will find branches of mathematics, that will seem illogical.

    Any new physics will be even more crazy.
     
  3. margolloxx

    margolloxx Chieftain

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    The answer to all of this is that we don't know. It has always been. Anytime some people claimed to have found the one truth it has gone horribly wrong either for them or the people around them. Is Earth flat? Are we the center of the universe? Do animals have feelings? What is the meaning of life (i have an idea but i might be wrong!)?
    If we are lucky then we are now closer to the truth than ever, if not we might have taken a wrong turn at some point and have to go back. Thats the baseline of science. Never dismiss a theory entirely, no matter how ludicrous it seems.

    Also remember that designing future stuff will be science fiction no matter what. Don't be scared to go off the rails!
     
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  4. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Since we have time travelling techs in later games, we could blame stable time loops for anything too weird :p
    There is even one tech, that claims to be gift from time travellers.

    Beginning of future should be very hard science fiction, so transition would be smooth.
    That is you would be 10 - 20 techs into future and you would wonder if those are actual predictions.
    Frost Beams tech in Transhuman era is one of softer SF techs.

    Information era was reworked so first column is 1990 - 1995 AD techs, second is 1995 - 2000 AD techs and so on.
    Column with Commercial Spaceflight is 2020 - 2025 AD.

    Our modern physics would be treated like crackpot theories in 18th/19th century.
    Also if those current crackpot theories were real, then their mathematics would be way more complex than mathematics you can usually find in physics.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  5. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Prince

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    So, I have some knowledge on relativity (I took a physics class on modern physics)... I understand there has been a lot of empirical proof, but is there an a priori reason why nothing can travel at c or faster? If one could, theoretically, travel at c, they could reach Alpha Centauri in 4 years. However, it would be instantaneous. They would, effectively, travel forward in time (seeing AC from 4 years ago at Earth, then in the present an instant later at AC). Nothing wrong there, right?

    But if, supposedly, time was at a fixed rate, it would take 4 years in your reference frame to get to AC. So, you see AC from 4 years ago at Earth (so, if the year is 2020, you see AC as it was in 2016). By the time you get to AC, it would be 2024, so you would see AC as it is in the then-present.

    Am I missing something, or is there no a priori reason (only a posteriori reason) supporting relativity?
     
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  6. tmv

    tmv Emperor

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    No. There is no a priori reason for anything in nature. Understanding that gave us the Renaissance.

    OK - how many people have switched their navigation systems off, because they are clearly not working if they take Relativity into account? How many have dismissed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HR_6819 as a hoax, because black holes cannot exist without Relativity? And what about Gravitational waves? Is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_observation_of_gravitational_waves a hoax, too?

    The problem is: Of course Relativity is unintuitive, and you cannot make this up. The theory appears insane to the human mind, but unfortunately it is extremely well confirmed. Which means that the mismatch Relativity <-> Human mind is strictly a problem of the human mind. The world is not weird, we are. If we have a problem with Reality, it is never Reality that has to deal with the problem, but us.

    And to everyone who thinks the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity-addition_formula is illogical: You are still thinking in terms of absolute space and time. If I'm moving at high speed (and thus I am perceiving much less time to pass than an outside observer), of course other moving objects will appear to be very fast. If little time passes for me, I perceive others to be fast. Is that illogical? An outside observer who is "at rest" does not perceive time in that way, so that one will not just see an addition of velocities.

    I'm sorry if I am a bit snarky, but many people are dying right now because they (or even worse, other people) simply don't trust science. Never mind that these disciplines have improved our lifestyle so much that at least middle-class people of today have a vastly better life than even kings in Medieval times could have dreamed of. Never mind that the "Alternatives" have never done anything to help people in general (as long as you remember the placebo effect, which scientific research takes extra effort to shield against), they don't really explain anything, but as long as there is even a single - currently - unanswered question in science, the "Alternatives" are suddenly the choice by default, although they cannot answer this question either. Sorry for repeating myself: You cannot make this up.
     
  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Yeah I get it and again, not completely discounting the theory or throwing it out the window, just saying that it seems illogical from a simpler perspective, and yes, that simpler perspective is an idea of absolute space and time. Someday I'll perhaps find reasons to try to understand it deeper but for now I think I've got the cursory understanding I was looking for - and still won't be at all surprised if we do have to turn back and reconsider things from a different theoretical position eventually when we do prove we can clock something as moving faster than light.
     
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  8. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    We may end up in following scenarios too:
    We may never get to exceed speed of light physically (according to special relativity), but it wouldn't matter:
    Wormholes exist (in general relativity), and you can create them easily as Galactic era civilization (there are gravity manipulation techs).
    We could find way to accelerate to 99.999% of light and exploit time dilatation with ease - by creative use of gravity manipulation for example.
    Any form of FTL means time travel too - so we could recover that time. Especially if time travel gets invented on its own.

    This way we could end up with wormhole FTL space trains.
    But still all unlucky matter caught by our space manipulation is radiation hazard.
    Transhumans can live for thousand of years by then, so coasting few light years is not much of problem for them.
    I think Caveman2Cosmos does FTL just like that.

    Cosmic era is just mastering it.
    In transcendent era its most likely that speed of light is actually broken by use of tachyons - there are multiple references about them in game.
     
  9. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    I honestly think that in the tech tree FTL comes too late. I feel it should be at the beginning of the galactic era not the end.
     
  10. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Wow. A whole pantomime ("you must believe in science, children, or I'll die", says Tinkerbell) of misdirection, hyperbole, strawmanning and emotive claptrap. Must be getting desperate.
     
  11. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Well Galactic era is kinda squished on beginning:

    GALACTIC
    X124 - Interstellar Travel - Flight to nearby stars
    X129 - Interstellar Colonization - Nearby Stars colonies.
    X132 - Advanced Seedships - Orion Arm colonies - gravity control is being researched at this point (starships powered by micro blackholes or something like that).
    X134 - Transtangible Neutrino Accelerators - Milky Way colonies - FTL.

    COSMIC
    X138 - Space Creasing - Local Group colonies
    X141 - Intergroup Travel - Virgo Supercluster colonies
    X145 - Intercluster Travel - Universe colonies
     
  12. MightyToad

    MightyToad Warlord

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    You forgot ad hominem. Oh wait, thats you. :thumbsup:
     
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  13. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    It appears Idiocracy and Brave New World are documentaries. :thumbsup::sarcasm:
    BRB getting infinity gauntlet so I'll remove all power plants and other electricity related infrastructure :bump::nuke:
    This way I'll remove science and modern technology from Earth.
    As additional bonus democracy won't be replaced with some form of totalitarianism at national or higher level :D
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  14. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Moderator Action: You do not have to agree with each other, but you are required to be civil with each other. Rein in the rhetoric, if you please.
     
  15. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    Then I feel like the earlier part of the galactic era should be part of the transhuman era. More Star Wars and Trek like technologies should be used to fill what then remains of the galactic era to after FTL. I feel like society would at least have FTL for a few thousand years before having the semi godlike abilities of the cosmic era. In Star Wars the people of the galaxy have had hyperspace travel for at least 25,000 years and yet by the time we reach the original trilogy they aren't even remotely close to kinds of technological feats you can pull off in the early cosmic era.
     
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I'll consider these positions again soon when looking at the units intended for serious long distance travel and when they might come in. It would be trivial to adjust the techs a bit under such evaluation. I think it may end up something between both of these. Hard to say at the moment. I will clearly need to fully evaluate the space stuff in the unit review process here.
     
  17. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Pepper even said, that Galactic era is bit rushed when it comes to colonization.
     
  18. Snofru1

    Snofru1 Emperor

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    The sound of the Fire Dock is like hell. Please eliminate it or find another sound.
     
  19. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  20. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Last edited: May 17, 2020
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