Caveman 2 Cosmos

[Yudishtira]

I'm not agreeing with the rename but stating that like other eras, we've named it according to what is happening in that era.

EDIT: Take the Nano era for example, it's not that because we reached nanotech prior to it but because of the major advancements in that area during it.

I'm not objecting to the era name, but in this case the Galactic Lifestyle is not established until late in the era, so that name is not appropriate for the starting tech.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm not objecting to the era name, but in this case the Galactic Lifestyle is not established until late in the era, so that name is not appropriate for the starting tech.

Aside from the Ancient Era, all eras begin with 'era name lifestyle'. I've always figured eventually that might be renamed to something more improved and specific like we have with Sedentary Lifestyle, but for now, as a crutch, it's just Era Lifestyle on them all. I do agree that the name is less than ideal. I'm just not sure that we're invested enough into the era divisions we have in that region to be fussing too much about the name YET. I can see Galactic Aspirations as being an interesting renaming for the tech itself. I did think you were talking about renaming the era though... sorry for that misunderstanding.

To want to rename any of the lifestyle techs, we should review the names on all of them, I think.

 

[Trantor]

At Galactic Lifestyle, you haven't made it out of the solar system yet. It should be called eg. Galactic Aspirations.

do all maps have space now?

 

[Thunderbrd]

do all maps have space now?

lol no. Not yet.

 

[Trantor]

which is best map for space game? also does AI come to space or that is the late game advantage for humans?

 

[Yudishtira]

do all maps have space now?

No, but I have all space buildings buildable on "Earth".

which is best map for space game? also does AI come to space or that is the late game advantage for humans?

AI never brings units to space. With all space buildings buildable on-world on a non-space map, they will at least get there in terms of buildings.

 

[Trantor]

great... so all maps are equally good and we need not play specifically space maps

 

[Yudishtira]

great... so all maps are equally good and we need not play specifically space maps

Space maps are a unique experience of taking your units to space, qualifying for mission rewards, colonizing (settling) actual offworld terrain, stuff like that.

 

[altug]

I get a great general Erich von Manstein in prehistoric era. Is it a sign of a bad installation on my side? or is it a known thing
I'm on C2C latest svn build.

 

[Jayman1000]

My Neanderthal Canoes with "Sea Animal Hunter" promotion does not receive any more xp at 20xp when defeating sea animals (like crabs, cod etc). This must be a bug, yes? Since the Sea Animal Hunter promotion should allow to keep earning xp after reaching the normal limit (but isn't the normal limit at 40xp? It is 40xp for example for fighting land unit barbs afaict, but idk if it is supposed to be 20xp limit for defeating sea animals? (without the "Sea Animal Hunter" promotion that is.). I dont know if this also affects other boat types, currently only noticed it with the Neanderthal Canoe. Also would you like me to report such findings in a specific sub forum or should I post this here? Or is there a known bug list I can browse to see if you are already aware of an issue?

 

[margolloxx]

I get a great general Erich von Manstein in prehistoric era. Is it a sign of a bad installation on my side? or is it a known thing
I'm on C2C latest svn build.

afaik specific great persons can spawn in any era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

My Neanderthal Canoes with "Sea Animal Hunter" promotion does not receive any more xp at 20xp when defeating sea animals (like crabs, cod etc). This must be a bug, yes? Since the Sea Animal Hunter promotion should allow to keep earning xp after reaching the normal limit (but isn't the normal limit at 40xp? It is 40xp for example for fighting land unit barbs afaict, but idk if it is supposed to be 20xp limit for defeating sea animals? (without the "Sea Animal Hunter" promotion that is.). I dont know if this also affects other boat types, currently only noticed it with the Neanderthal Canoe. Also would you like me to report such findings in a specific sub forum or should I post this here? Or is there a known bug list I can browse to see if you are already aware of an issue?

Issue isn't known... We need to record it on the bug list on Git or just address it. I'll personally just try to keep it in mind and look for the issue if I can find it - it should be easily enough found at some point. For me, just knowing its out there would mean when I start poking around in that area of things I will hopefully recall that the problem exists and fix it as I go. Maybe another team member would be willing to take a deeper look into it right away though.

afaik specific great persons can spawn in any era.

True and correct answer. However, I have at times wondered if someday we might want to put an end to this anachronism practice by defining an era to a given name.

 

[Joij21]

Aside from the Ancient Era, all eras begin with 'era name lifestyle'. I've always figured eventually that might be renamed to something more improved and specific like we have with Sedentary Lifestyle, but for now, as a crutch, it's just Era Lifestyle on them all. I do agree that the name is less than ideal. I'm just not sure that we're invested enough into the era divisions we have in that region to be fussing too much about the name YET. I can see Galactic Aspirations as being an interesting renaming for the tech itself. I did think you were talking about renaming the era though... sorry for that misunderstanding.

To want to rename any of the lifestyle techs, we should review the names on all of them, I think.

My problem with the era is it says Galactic Era. Galactic to me is not in the solar system, even though the solar system is part of the galaxy. For instance you wouldn't call Star Wars by it's name if it took place on Earth despite the fact Earth exists among the stars. Its a naming convention for the sake of flavor, because to most people standing on the surface of the Earth feels the most disconnected from the stars since we only see them at night. Therefore galactic as a term should be flavor applied in the mod as in past the Solar System.

If we want to get more specific Galactic as an era would be comparable to Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Firefly, and Babylon 5 respectively. In other words way past the exploration of the galaxy and more towards feeling the galaxy up close and personal. After all we are exploring the galaxy right now with telescopes and satellites without ever having to get our butts off our chairs and go to such places. So if we were to stick to the current Galactic naming convention, then the Atomic, Information, Nanotech, and Transhuman eras should be renamed to Galactic respectively. Hence why a new naming convention for Galactic meaning traditional sci-fi levels of colonization is necessary.

 

[GreatLordofPie]

Maybe it could be called the "Stellar Era"? It's a bit of a double entendre since you start the era as a stellar civilization making your first forays into interstellar space, then by the end your solidly an interstellar civilization taking its first steps into the wider galaxy and extra-galactic space.
It could also be called the "Khardeshev Era" since its basically the transition from Type 1 at the beginning to Type 2+ at the end.

At least that's what I get from civlopedia, I haven't gotten that far in-game yet

 

[Joij21]

Warning Long Rant in Progress​

Yeah I dislike the very concept of the Khardeshev Scale. As a matter of fact I personally believe the scale is useless, flawed, and paints a crude linear picture of societal development. My main criticism of Khardeshev is that his system is based solely on a civilization's ability to extract energy from a single location. Not once does this system take into account the fact that machines will likely become more energy efficient over time or the fact that there is a maximum amount of demand for power based on population. Also the Khardeshev Scale focuses solely on the fact that all civilizations will develop into tall empires whereby not once does it consider the fact that empires might build wide instead. An empire that builds wide over many thousands of star systems would be superior to a T2 civilization. The hilarious part is that the wide empire could be less then T1 and beat the T2 in a fight despite the fact that the Khardeshev Scale insists the later is more advanced. This is because the wide empire uses FTL to link many star systems together in order to extract enough resources to the point that it never has to have 100% efficiency like the T2 civilization has. What's worse is that the poor T2 civilization only has one star system with a giant dyson sphere around it. While it extracts energy from it's home system at 100% efficiency, nothing implies it has FTL since that's not a quality that is measured by the Khardeshev Scale. So in a war the wider empire would crush the pathetic dyson sphere inhabiting space hippies in no time.

For an analogy lets use something like Palpatine's empire from Star Wars. We know for a fact that the Empire cannot extract energy in a solar system at 100% efficiency. We also know the Empire probably can't access 100% percent of a single planet's energy despite the fact that they are probably better at it then we are. So for the Galactic Empire I'd give them a rank of 0.9 according to the Khardeshev Scale. Slightly more advanced then we are. The caveat being they have FTL which is a non measured variable. So Pappa Palps thereby prefers to build his empire wide to bring in lots of resources and labor. In doing so he has huge fleets, near limitless amounts of soldiers, and a death star.

Now lets talk about that T2 civ. Since there are not a lot of good examples of dyson sphere inhabiting empires from sci-fi lets just call them the Space Hippies. Now to start off you may notice these poor sods only live in one system. Yes they extract solar energy around their star at 100% efficiency however due to the fact they only inhabit one star system they are limited on metals. Most likely all or a majority of the metals in their system have been wasted to build their stupid dyson sphere. Again we cannot rely on the fact they might have FTL or powerful weaponry since those are non measured variables according to Khardeshev. So after using energy for food and basic necessities these Space Hippies most likely use the excess energy on loud concerts as there doesn't seem to be anything else they could do with it.

Now for the fight. Please remember that Palps has an empire spread out over an entire galaxy, so if the Space Hippies had FTL they would have a hard time taking all of that. Meanwhile the Space Hippies only have one star system, so even if they had decent weaponry, Palps has a huge war machine and multiple fleets to take on this system. Even if things go badly for Palps he can still resort to hit and run raids knowing the single location of that one dyson sphere or even bring in his death star. Meanwhile not much can be done on the side of the Hippies, they made the mistake of putting all their eggs in one basket. This is a paradoxical example of a T0.9 wiping out a T2 despite the fact that the former should have stood no chance. It seems as though the T rating actually has no meaning as to what makes an empire more advanced according to such a paradox.

So as you can see these are the points I try to stress whenever someone brings up Khardeshev. To me its an outdated measuring system that excludes many variables and can lead to many paradoxical scenarios like above. Though to be fair, Khardeshev invented his scale way back in 1964, a time where computers and electronics where not yet miniaturized. So maybe at the time he thought we would still have giant energy hogging machines well into the future and therefore an advanced civ would have to extract inconceivable amounts of electricity if it wanted to advance. Anyway I think it should be replaced with a new system that takes into account many more variables than just energy extraction. Perhaps one that includes variables such as physical capability, energy efficiency, social progression, literacy, IQ rates, education performance, mathematical complexity, welfare, quality of living, etc.

 

[altug]

I saw a minor behaviour inconsistency about field generals. After loading a save, if you first select general, then the unit, the general's bonus wont apply, even you change your way of selections later wont help.
You have to first select the unit and then the general to use his bonuses, after a load.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Warning Long Rant in Progress​

Yeah I dislike the very concept of the Khardeshev Scale. As a matter of fact I personally believe the scale is useless, flawed, and paints a crude linear picture of societal development. My main criticism of Khardeshev is that his system is based solely on a civilization's ability to extract energy from a single location. Not once does this system take into account the fact that machines will likely become more energy efficient over time or the fact that there is a maximum amount of demand for power based on population. Also the Khardeshev Scale focuses solely on the fact that all civilizations will develop into tall empires whereby not once does it consider the fact that empires might build wide instead. An empire that builds wide over many thousands of star systems would be superior to a T2 civilization. The hilarious part is that the wide empire could be less then T1 and beat the T2 in a fight despite the fact that the Khardeshev Scale insists the later is more advanced. This is because the wide empire uses FTL to link many star systems together in order to extract enough resources to the point that it never has to have 100% efficiency like the T2 civilization has. What's worse is that the poor T2 civilization only has one star system with a giant dyson sphere around it. While it extracts energy from it's home system at 100% efficiency, nothing implies it has FTL since that's not a quality that is measured by the Khardeshev Scale. So in a war the wider empire would crush the pathetic dyson sphere inhabiting space hippies in no time.

For an analogy lets use something like Palpatine's empire from Star Wars. We know for a fact that the Empire cannot extract energy in a solar system at 100% efficiency. We also know the Empire probably can't access 100% percent of a single planet's energy despite the fact that they are probably better at it then we are. So for the Galactic Empire I'd give them a rank of 0.9 according to the Khardeshev Scale. Slightly more advanced then we are. The caveat being they have FTL which is a non measured variable. So Pappa Palps thereby prefers to build his empire wide to bring in lots of resources and labor. In doing so he has huge fleets, near limitless amounts of soldiers, and a death star.

Now lets talk about that T2 civ. Since there are not a lot of good examples of dyson sphere inhabiting empires from sci-fi lets just call them the Space Hippies. Now to start off you may notice these poor sods only live in one system. Yes they extract solar energy around their star at 100% efficiency however due to the fact they only inhabit one star system they are limited on metals. Most likely all or a majority of the metals in their system have been wasted to build their stupid dyson sphere. Again we cannot rely on the fact they might have FTL or powerful weaponry since those are non measured variables according to Khardeshev. So after using energy for food and basic necessities these Space Hippies most likely use the excess energy on loud concerts as there doesn't seem to be anything else they could do with it.

Now for the fight. Please remember that Palps has an empire spread out over an entire galaxy, so if the Space Hippies had FTL they would have a hard time taking all of that. Meanwhile the Space Hippies only have one star system, so even if they had decent weaponry, Palps has a huge war machine and multiple fleets to take on this system. Even if things go badly for Palps he can still resort to hit and run raids knowing the single location of that one dyson sphere or even bring in his death star. Meanwhile not much can be done on the side of the Hippies, they made the mistake of putting all their eggs in one basket. This is a paradoxical example of a T0.9 wiping out a T2 despite the fact that the former should have stood no chance. It seems as though the T rating actually has no meaning as to what makes an empire more advanced according to such a paradox.

So as you can see these are the points I try to stress whenever someone brings up Khardeshev. To me its an outdated measuring system that excludes many variables and can lead to many paradoxical scenarios like above. Though to be fair, Khardeshev invented his scale way back in 1964, a time where computers and electronics where not yet miniaturized. So maybe at the time he thought we would still have giant energy hogging machines well into the future and therefore an advanced civ would have to extract inconceivable amounts of electricity if it wanted to advance. Anyway I think it should be replaced with a new system that takes into account many more variables than just energy extraction. Perhaps one that includes variables such as physical capability, energy efficiency, social progression, literacy, IQ rates, education performance, mathematical complexity, welfare, quality of living, etc.

I've always had the sense, not so much from having evaluated it, but just the sense, that the Kardashev system seemed a little crude and based on earlier assumptions. Perhaps in part one of those assumptions is that FTL is impossible, in which case, perhaps such a society would indeed be limited to how much they could collect from their home solar system and the wide build wouldn't even be possible until possibly much later.

I saw a minor behaviour inconsistency about field generals. After loading a save, if you first select general, then the unit, the general's bonus wont apply, even you change your way of selections later wont help.
You have to first select the unit and then the general to use his bonuses, after a load.

The caching around Great Commanders is very important to the speed of processing but can lead to small inconsistencies such as these.

 

[GreatLordofPie]

Warning Long Rant in Progress​

FTL is kind of a cheap out, since if we're using known physics as the benchmark, you'd need, to quote the dear Emperor, "unlimited power" (or at least a huge amount of it) to be able to fold space. So I disagree with the assessment that a paradox exists as you described it (if SW Legends is to be believed, a single star destroyer produces something in the ballpark of K1 civ anyways). I do agree that the scale is flawed and that other factors should be accounted for, but for the purposes of era naming, it's good enough shorthand for what the era is, and gives a good enough idea for a layperson about what that era is (or at least better than "Galactic" as you pointed out).

 

[Joij21]

FTL is kind of a cheap out, since if we're using known physics as the benchmark, you'd need, to quote the dear Emperor, "unlimited power" (or at least a huge amount of it) to be able to fold space.

That's not taking into effect increased energy efficiency of such designs.

So I disagree with the assessment that a paradox exists as you described it (if SW Legends is to be believed, a single star destroyer produces something in the ballpark of K1 civ anyways).

While a star destroyer may produce a lot of energy, the fuel which created that energy was extracted at less than 100% efficiency from a single planet. In order to be K1 you must have this 100% energy efficiency which clearly the Empire does not. Instead it's fuel is extracted from 10% of a planet's surface from multiple sources to get the final fuel amount.

 

[Faustmouse]

That's not taking into effect increased energy efficiency of such designs.

Agreed. Also, at some point, all the science elite was sure that we can't go faster than the speed of wind. Or later, faster than the speed of sound. Or that it would be impossible to send humans to the moon. Or that we know all of physics, and the only thing left is more accurate measurements. Assuming that we know for sure that FTL is impossible, is just woefully arrogant IMO.