Caveman 2 Cosmos

[JosEPh_II]

Spot on, it is v37. That's the 'psGiant Earth Map - 5 Civs 12513.'

Where did you pick up the map from?

 

[Harrier]

Where did you pick up the map from?

It is in the Private Maps folder on the SVN.

 

[Lord Brooks]

Where did you pick up the map from?

Like Harrier said, it's in the mod. I just chose to play it from the single player scenario list. I've now downloaded the latest version via the link you posted above. But I can't leave a comment because I don't have dropbox.

 

[Vledis]

Do you mean Pit's UEM? C2C doesn't have a Gigantic Earth Map available out side of Pit's scenario. We used to have a Giant Earth Map (GEM) but the Mapmaker for it has not updated to match C2C new terrain and terrain features.

There is C2C_World map available though.

And how fast do you want later game turns to be at end of turn processing? Marathon would be faster than Snail.

1 last set of questions; what version of C2C are you using? The v37 Official release, the SVN current version, or the Patched V37 I put up yesterday in the v37 Update/Patches thread https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/update-patches-for-v37.613571/unread

I use GEMap and SVN version. Pit's UEM looks too strange. Portugal on Kanares, square Greece...GEM looks more filled and realistic. I want to "feel" all eras)There is no difference to speed of turns at end of turn processing. On marathon it's so slowly too.

What is the C2C_World?

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Vledis,
C2C-World is a New Map by Toffer90 one of our Modders and a our current graphics guru. It is Not a True Earth Map like GEM, or HEM, LEM, or SEM.

Also C2C is not a true "realistic" history simulator Mod. It is a What If type Mod. Hope you don't get disappointed when it does not parallel History.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It is in the Private Maps folder on the SVN.

Ah yes one of your maps. But it hasn't been updated since March of 2016. Wonder if Hydro and Toffer's recent terrain changes will have any effects on game play?

 

[Toffer90]

What is the C2C_World?

Something I'm working on. It's based on perfectMongoose3/4.
Perfect mongoose was once based on the very old perfectWorld mapscript. They all have in common an advanced rainfall wind and temperature mapping that decide all climate based on distance from ocean and land elevation.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Interesting map generation nonetheless, I liked what I saw in WB. But then I'm not a player that really wants an Earth replicated map to play on.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Arsonists are now a national unit with a max of 20! What the...!

<Rant on>

These units were limited to 5 for a reason - they are a danger to your own troops. The more there are of them the greater the danger. By limiting them to 5 we did not have to write the AI needed to reflect this nor the "bad" stuff needed to accurately depict this unit.

If you are going to have more than 5 of these in a stack you should be prepared to loose the whole stack long before you get it into battle.

I suggest implementing an event like mechanism that goes something like:-

For each stack with more than 5 Arsonists in it

Chance of misadventure = 5% per unit
If a misadventure happens either

- loose whole stack
OR
- every unit in the stack looses 25% of its maximum health, Arsonist units double current cost to build and maintain.​

<Rant off>

 

[JosEPh_II]

Arsonists are now a national unit with a max of 20! What the...!

<Rant on>

These units were limited to 5 for a reason - they are a danger to your own troops. The more there are of them the greater the danger. By limiting them to 5 we did not have to write the AI needed to reflect this nor the "bad" stuff needed to accurately depict this unit.

If you are going to have more than 5 of these in a stack you should be prepared to loose the whole stack long before you get it into battle.

I suggest implementing an event like mechanism that goes something like:-

For each stack with more than 5 Arsonists in it

Chance of misadventure = 5% per unit
If a misadventure happens either

- loose whole stack
OR
- every unit in the stack looses 25% of its maximum health, Arsonist units double current cost to build and maintain.​

<Rant off>

DH I explained why and when already, almost a year ago in fact. And you do Not lose the whole stack long before you get to battle. It's been game tested for over a year now.

Please point out the file that does this:

If you are going to have more than 5 of these in a stack you should be prepared to loose the whole stack long before you get it into battle.

I can post you a save game where I'm using Arsonists in stacks and never have I lost a single unit getting to a battle, I repeat never.

And I would be Very, Very opposed to this:

I suggest implementing an event like mechanism that goes something like:-

For each stack with more than 5 Arsonists in it

Chance of misadventure = 5% per unit
If a misadventure happens either

- loose whole stack
OR
- every unit in the stack looses 25% of its maximum health, Arsonist units double current cost to build and maintain.​

​

Also the AI uses them well too And That is what is really important.

(my counter rant off too.)

 

[Thunderbrd]

DH wasn't trying to say that they already have these effects but rather that they should. I don't really agree either because they are basically just torch wielders. Sure there could be some mishaps but I don't feel it would be so likely to be THAT severe. If we had a friendly fire system they could be made to be more likely to goof I suppose.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well if they are just torch wielders then yes there is no problem and they are not the unit as originally designed and I have no problem. However I do wonder at where they become available now.

Edit Originally they were very early equivalents to molotov cocktail throwers. They lead to Early Flame Throwers (required hand pump tech and maybe a Tradition or Doctrine) and later Early Grenadiers, Modern Flame Throwers and Molotov Cocktail throwers. By the time normal Grenadiers come along they have a handle the safety issues, mostly.

If they have been nerft back to just torch wielders then there is no need for them to be national units at all.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Edit Originally they were very early equivalents to molotov cocktail throwers. They lead to Early Flame Throwers (required hand pump tech and maybe a Tradition or Doctrine) and later Early Grenadiers, Modern Flame Throwers and Molotov Cocktail throwers.

This I understood. Even way back when.....

But in the reality of the Mod a total of 20 is but a mere pittance to the stacks of hundreds of units this mod allows with it's default stack limit being Unlimited (-1). Now IF, the Stack were limited to 100 or less this discussion/"rant" would have more relevance. As it stands now it does not. Just that simple.

And as to having National units status, they are so just the same as other Siege units are. Otherwise do you want stacks sitting around the AI cities again? I really don't think so.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It does not worry me one way or the other. If they are just torch wielders then there is no problems. If they are early Molotov Cocktail throwers then you need to put the downside in.

This I understood. Even way back when.....

But in the reality of the Mod a total of 20 is but a mere pittance to the stacks of hundreds of units this mod allows with it's default stack limit being Unlimited (-1). Now IF, the Stack were limited to 100 or less this discussion/"rant" would have more relevance. As it stands now it does not. Just that simple.

And as to having National units status, they are so just the same as other Siege units are. Otherwise do you want stacks sitting around the AI cities again? I really don't think so.

How can this possible be working since many people just select the "unlimited national units" option which turns off the limit completely?

 

[Harrier]

Ah yes one of your maps. But it hasn't been updated since March of 2016. Wonder if Hydro and Toffer's recent terrain changes will have any effects on game play?

Not one of mine. Do not know who's it is.

But mine do need to be updated, although they should still work. I need to add Sea's (first) and then the new terrain changes eventually.

 

[Harrier]

How can this possible be working since many people just select the "unlimited national units" option which turns off the limit completely?

I always use limited national units. It may hurt my game play, but seems more realistic. In the UK for instance, you can train loads of soldiers, who initially will have little experience. They come and go. But only a very few will get to train and then be excepted into the SAS. So the SAS should be limited. Hence my support for limited units.

If the correct units in C2C are selected to be limited is another matter..

 

[JosEPh_II]

It does not worry me one way or the other. If they are just torch wielders then there is no problems. If they are early Molotov Cocktail throwers then you need to put the downside in.

How can this possible be working since many people just select the "unlimited national units" option which turns off the limit completely?

I don't know about that as I don't use Unlimited National units. We give players choices. But how do we make them bend to our will to play only a certain way?

And imho Arsonists do not need the downside, they now have a niche that they work well in. And it's been my experience that the AI uses them well too. So why would I want to tear them down again with a decisively terrible down side. Then the AI would not use them at all. It was when the Siege units like the Battering and then Siege Ram were made too strong that the AI doted on building them too extreme excess. Literally stacks of rams on every tile around their own cities. They made city attacking nigh on impossible. And why? Because the AI builds the Best unit it can for either offense or defense. There is a balance in this area now. Including that downside would wreck it again. Might as well remove Arsonists from the mod if that's the case right?

 

[Septentrion]

I play with limited national units, but a large part of me regrets that when I get to Great Farmers.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I don't know about that as I don't use Unlimited National units. We give players choices. But how do we make them bend to our will to play only a certain way?

And imho Arsonists do not need the downside, they now have a niche that they work well in. And it's been my experience that the AI uses them well too. So why would I want to tear them down again with a decisively terrible down side. Then the AI would not use them at all. It was when the Siege units like the Battering and then Siege Ram were made too strong that the AI doted on building them too extreme excess. Literally stacks of rams on every tile around their own cities. They made city attacking nigh on impossible. And why? Because the AI builds the Best unit it can for either offense or defense. There is a balance in this area now. Including that downside would wreck it again. Might as well remove Arsonists from the mod if that's the case right?

Why not have fighter planes that can only go under water? The purpose of the unit has changed from the original intent so much that it is no longer filling the original need but some other need. Just saying.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The purpose of the unit has changed from the original intent so much that it is no longer filling the original need but some other need. Just saying.

And what was the original need? They never did what you say they should have from the time they were introduced back around v17. What was the Original Need?

Really if you build a unit that is going to destroy or cripple your own forces neither player and especially the AI will build it. That is the main point, AI proper usage right? The units Good must out weigh it's Bad or it gets ignored and becomes useless code. Bloating the Mod. So if Arsonists are as badly used as you say (don't meet their intent), then we need to completely remove the unit from play.