Collateral damage... I keep hearing of it but I don't understand it's mechanics! Could you please help me with it? E.g. Max 50% damage across two units. So it will attack 2 units doing up to 50% damage to each of them, but is the damage done to each of them the same (e.g. 40% damage?) and what determines the amount of damage dealt?
Caveman2Cosmos Let's Play - AstralPhaser/12padams
- Thread starter 12padams
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God-Emperor
Deity
A unit with collateral damage attacks as normal and will either win or lose or withdraw. On top of the normal combat, it will inflict damage on randomly selected "other units" (other than the one it was directly attacking). So for your "up to 50% on up to 2 units" example, it will randomly pick 2 other units in the stack being attacked and inflict a little damage on them. It will not pick a unit that has more than the limit (50% in this example). If it picks a unit that is immune to collateral damage from a siege unit (like probably all siege units are) then it does no damage to that unit - it does not pick another. There are probably other cases where you don't get the full number of units damaged, but I'm not sure what they are.
Catapults are your friends. So is anything else that causes collateral damage. If you attack a city with a bunch of catapults before anything else attacks, then there is a good chance that every unit in the city will be damaged. Possibly as much as half. Attacking a bunch of half strength units is a lot better than attacking a bunch of full strength units.
By the way, I think the reason you could not upgrade your rams the first turn they arrived near the city with the required workshop in it is that you can not upgrade a unit that has no movement points left. In between then and the next turn is when you lost your copper, which is what prevented it after that (and is still preventing it - your workers are building a mine on some random hill with no resource instead of building a mine on the very important copper resource). Technically, any unit that requires copper should be able to be built with iron instead since just about anything you can make from copper you can make from iron (well, back in that time period anyway), but that upgraded ram specifically requires copper.
Another "by the way": Your assassin did absolutely nothing to protect your worker. It is invisible to the enemy units unless that have a dog or a similar unit nearby. They can just walk in and kill or capture the worker without ever knowing it was there. Likewise, it did not block off access to the Greek city earlier because the enemy units could have just walked right through it without ever knowing it was there. I expect the units you saw were leaving the city, not going to it, and just kept going wherever they were headed and never knew your assassin was there.
I am wondering if your attack on the Greek city was using an SVN update from during the period where there was an "attackers never win" bug. Statistically speaking, you should have won a couple of those fights. But it could just have been bad luck.
Catapults are your friends. So is anything else that causes collateral damage. If you attack a city with a bunch of catapults before anything else attacks, then there is a good chance that every unit in the city will be damaged. Possibly as much as half. Attacking a bunch of half strength units is a lot better than attacking a bunch of full strength units.
By the way, I think the reason you could not upgrade your rams the first turn they arrived near the city with the required workshop in it is that you can not upgrade a unit that has no movement points left. In between then and the next turn is when you lost your copper, which is what prevented it after that (and is still preventing it - your workers are building a mine on some random hill with no resource instead of building a mine on the very important copper resource). Technically, any unit that requires copper should be able to be built with iron instead since just about anything you can make from copper you can make from iron (well, back in that time period anyway), but that upgraded ram specifically requires copper.
Another "by the way": Your assassin did absolutely nothing to protect your worker. It is invisible to the enemy units unless that have a dog or a similar unit nearby. They can just walk in and kill or capture the worker without ever knowing it was there. Likewise, it did not block off access to the Greek city earlier because the enemy units could have just walked right through it without ever knowing it was there. I expect the units you saw were leaving the city, not going to it, and just kept going wherever they were headed and never knew your assassin was there.
I am wondering if your attack on the Greek city was using an SVN update from during the period where there was an "attackers never win" bug. Statistically speaking, you should have won a couple of those fights. But it could just have been bad luck.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
What bugged me is the Assassin creates crime and you kept it sitting in your city and territory, thus creating a huge amount of crime in and around that city. If you make those units you should keep them the hell away from your own lands.
Hands down one of the best & most important units in the game. Once you have a core group of elite commando's ready to rock - roll out the catapults and let the suicide bombing begin. Your commando's will never lose a fight because the catapults warmed them up for you. They will continue to rack up the xp and all you need to do is keep churning out the catapults.
Here's episode 23 but sorry joe... I didn't see your advice on youtube before I recorded this. I still avoided building the horses and didn't feel it was nessisary to upgrade my hunters since they can already kill animals just fine... Still I achieved a lot in this episode and ill work on doing those other things you suggested in the next episode.
Episode 23: http://youtu.be/HBxsqfgcU_c
Finally I finish building my large army of swordsmen, catapults, siege towers and siege rams to take over a few new cities. Initially I wanted to go after the Greece but when Ragnar declares war on me I decide that it's time to wipe out the Scandinavian cities so that he never threatens me again.
Episode 23: http://youtu.be/HBxsqfgcU_c
Finally I finish building my large army of swordsmen, catapults, siege towers and siege rams to take over a few new cities. Initially I wanted to go after the Greece but when Ragnar declares war on me I decide that it's time to wipe out the Scandinavian cities so that he never threatens me again.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Rangers can be very useful in picking off "other" units not just acquiring more animals. 2 movement with 5 str plus the right Promos you have a very good picket unit.
Can you build any other Mounted units besides Horse? Elephants in Classical Era are your Friend! Built in +25% City Attack and +50% against other mounted units. If you also have Bamboo armor you get a +20 vs Archers then add the 1st Melee promo and you have all but siege covered.
JosEPh
Can you build any other Mounted units besides Horse? Elephants in Classical Era are your Friend! Built in +25% City Attack and +50% against other mounted units. If you also have Bamboo armor you get a +20 vs Archers then add the 1st Melee promo and you have all but siege covered.
JosEPh
Taxman66
King
Rangers are also better in that they have more protection from AI units picking them off as well.
But I recently entered the medieval era and I've got swordsmen with 10 str and a free bonus 20% city attack which I greatly increase with promotions. Are elephants really better than that? And do I actually have elephants? I haven't checked lol
Right now I'm aiming for optics so I can get boats to find the new world. I'm gunna protect it with a border of boats and hunt the land out with rangers... Then After that I'm gunna rush for clock punk to get those awesome early plane and tank units.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
But I recently entered the medieval era and I've got swordsmen with 10 str and a free bonus 20% city attack which I greatly increase with promotions. Are elephants really better than that? And do I actually have elephants? I haven't checked lol
Right now I'm aiming for optics so I can get boats to find the new world. I'm gunna protect it with a border of boats and hunt the land out with rangers... Then After that I'm gunna rush for clock punk to get those awesome early plane and tank units.
When did Hannibal scale the Alps with elephants to attack Europe?
Also Elephants upgrade in the Medieval to Ballista and War Elephants (9 and 12 Str units). Add in a Melee Promo or 2 and they will stomp on your puny Swordsman. Especially if your Swordsman only have City Attack promos. Meet in the open country and your Swordsman are fodder.
Do you ever give any of your units a defensive promo?
JosEPh
God-Emperor
Deity
You just demonstrated a nice AI bug.
Ragnar had that archer in the city which you only had about a 1% chance of winning against, so what does he do? He moves it out of the city. Given the bonuses it was getting it must have had something like city defense 3, combat 1, the lush terrain promotion, and the flaming arrows thing - and possibly more. I think he moved it next to the city on top of the horses where the city defense promotions it had did nothing, and the best unit left in the city only had something like a 10% chance of not getting killed by one of your swordsmen instead of the 99% that the archer had.
Definitely an AI bug. The whole desire to keep and/or move units outside the city onto good defensive locations or to protect resources is definitely taking things too far. Protecting the horses from being pillaged is useless if you lose the city that is getting you the horses (which is exactly what happened).
By the way (you knew that was coming, didn't you), ranged bombard is very iffy in it's usefulness - I don't know what the accuracy number is but it is not a direct percent chance of hitting, at the very least there must be some modifiers that can reduce the chance considerably since a supposed 70% chance seems more like 35% or less (it seems to have about a 1 in 3 to 1 in 4 chance of doing damage, on average). It also apparently never directly damages the strongest defender. Just like regular collateral doesn't damage the unit that actually defended against the unit's attack, the ranged bombard does not seem to damage the until that would have defended if it has attacked normally, which is the same unit. With a healer in the city there is also pretty much no chance that collateral damage is going to build up unless you do a lot of it every turn: even without a healer a unit in a friendly city heals 20% per turn, to which the healer's 20% (or whatever) is added for a total of something likely to be 40% per turn or more. There could also be buildings in the city that increase the healing (like +10% from a healer's hut). So the whole concept of sitting around hoping to weaken the enemy by turn after turn of ranged bombarding the city a lot is not a good one, especially in light of the next thing...
Also, that taking damage from buildings in the enemy city is from buildings in the enemy city (what a surprise). The various tower like buildings (with names like frontier outpost, fortified outpost, guard tower, and so on) have some chance to do damage to units adjacent to the city every turn (this appears to be a better chance than the ranged bombard has of doing collateral damage). The pit traps, mechanical traps, and so on line of buildings also does this. It can get up well over the amount you can heal in enemy territory (normally 5%) without a healer, leading to a pretty rapid loss of health when you sit next to an enemy city that is a lot like trying to heal on damaging terrain (only worse because once you are damaged enough for their chances of winning when attacking get good enough they will tend to start attacking you).
And finally, your newly captured cities don't need health they need happy. Build happy producing buildings. Or if you completely wipe out the civ you took it from then the unhappiness from being largely foreign in culture goes away since the dead civ's culture disappears.
Ragnar had that archer in the city which you only had about a 1% chance of winning against, so what does he do? He moves it out of the city. Given the bonuses it was getting it must have had something like city defense 3, combat 1, the lush terrain promotion, and the flaming arrows thing - and possibly more. I think he moved it next to the city on top of the horses where the city defense promotions it had did nothing, and the best unit left in the city only had something like a 10% chance of not getting killed by one of your swordsmen instead of the 99% that the archer had.
Definitely an AI bug. The whole desire to keep and/or move units outside the city onto good defensive locations or to protect resources is definitely taking things too far. Protecting the horses from being pillaged is useless if you lose the city that is getting you the horses (which is exactly what happened).
By the way (you knew that was coming, didn't you), ranged bombard is very iffy in it's usefulness - I don't know what the accuracy number is but it is not a direct percent chance of hitting, at the very least there must be some modifiers that can reduce the chance considerably since a supposed 70% chance seems more like 35% or less (it seems to have about a 1 in 3 to 1 in 4 chance of doing damage, on average). It also apparently never directly damages the strongest defender. Just like regular collateral doesn't damage the unit that actually defended against the unit's attack, the ranged bombard does not seem to damage the until that would have defended if it has attacked normally, which is the same unit. With a healer in the city there is also pretty much no chance that collateral damage is going to build up unless you do a lot of it every turn: even without a healer a unit in a friendly city heals 20% per turn, to which the healer's 20% (or whatever) is added for a total of something likely to be 40% per turn or more. There could also be buildings in the city that increase the healing (like +10% from a healer's hut). So the whole concept of sitting around hoping to weaken the enemy by turn after turn of ranged bombarding the city a lot is not a good one, especially in light of the next thing...
Also, that taking damage from buildings in the enemy city is from buildings in the enemy city (what a surprise). The various tower like buildings (with names like frontier outpost, fortified outpost, guard tower, and so on) have some chance to do damage to units adjacent to the city every turn (this appears to be a better chance than the ranged bombard has of doing collateral damage). The pit traps, mechanical traps, and so on line of buildings also does this. It can get up well over the amount you can heal in enemy territory (normally 5%) without a healer, leading to a pretty rapid loss of health when you sit next to an enemy city that is a lot like trying to heal on damaging terrain (only worse because once you are damaged enough for their chances of winning when attacking get good enough they will tend to start attacking you).
And finally, your newly captured cities don't need health they need happy. Build happy producing buildings. Or if you completely wipe out the civ you took it from then the unhappiness from being largely foreign in culture goes away since the dead civ's culture disappears.
You're right of course. It evaluates the best defensive unit for the tile it wants to protect (as I recall), but does not evaluate its status in regard to the (city) tile it is leaving (apart from never letting the aggregate city defense strength fall below a threshold), so in particular it can lead to bad effects like this where it wastes city defense promotions. I agree that it needs changing to take better account of that.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@12padams
You were complaining that it took too long to pacify a city when its in anarchy for like 14 turns. A trick to bypass that is to take a storyteller with you and pop it in the city. It will use up the unit but it will instantly remove all the anarchy in the city.
You were complaining that it took too long to pacify a city when its in anarchy for like 14 turns. A trick to bypass that is to take a storyteller with you and pop it in the city. It will use up the unit but it will instantly remove all the anarchy in the city.
Thanks for the advice hydro! Um, I don't know if you were referring to my latest epsiode (24) which I didn't link to from here yet but yea, it's a little late for that now but I'll do it next time. Oh and here is the latest epsiode which I forgot to link to yet somehow it's already had 7 views... Just a note though: this episode is quite slow with a bit too much looking at the sevopedia and talking with not many turns competed. So just a warning... I try not to do this usually!
Episode 24: http://youtu.be/PWPhhJbyX7k
Finally I wipe out my first civilization: The Scandinavians. I may have seen the last of Ragnar but there are over 20 more civilizations still competing with me in my developing world. After taking over Ragnar's last city I begin to think about which civilization I wish to wipe out next.
Episode 24: http://youtu.be/PWPhhJbyX7k
Finally I wipe out my first civilization: The Scandinavians. I may have seen the last of Ragnar but there are over 20 more civilizations still competing with me in my developing world. After taking over Ragnar's last city I begin to think about which civilization I wish to wipe out next.
However, this is really a bug (or at least hugely imbalanced) so expect it to change at some point so that the ST only removes a couple of turns per ST used.
Edit - also note that getting rid of the anarchy is a VERY 2 edged sword. While it's in anarchy it isn't using food, so if there is a food shortage (as there often is in a newly captured city due to unhappy people not working and so on) as soon as it coms out of anarchy it will start to shrink 1 per turn. You can use the anarchy time to get crime under control (town watchmen in the garrison), and thus have less unhappy people when it comes out of anarchy and ultimately preserve a far larger city than you would have otherwise. Maybe I should have posted this in the tips section. Oh well, nevermind.
That's kinda what I thought so I always brought my townwatchmen there during anarchy.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
No problem. Its a well known tip in the tips section. And yes I watched episode 24 before you posted it here. I frequently look on YouTube for more C2C Let's Plays from other people.
Also don't forget your long term goal of Clockpunk. You should be able to get it in the city near the Sulphur resource. Just make sure you get Mountaineering before you get Clockpunk tech so you can make a mine on that peak.
Do you agree that my goal of clock punk really is a good one? Do most people try to go for this?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
The Clockpunk Golems are very much worth it. Plus you don't really want someone else getting it.
Hey everyone I recorded the next episode a few days ago but I just can't get myself to edit it. As you know I cut out ai turn time which takes a boring 1 hour per epsiode to complete. Does anyone know a way to automatically remove parts of a video with no visual movement? (graphics come to a compelte halt AI's have their turn with minimize ai turn time enabled)
If so please tell me because I am getting to the point where I am getting sick of maintaining the lets play which isn't good. And don't even think about me uploading the episodes without cutting out ai turn time... It's already 40 seconds per turn!
I recorded the next episode a few days ago but I just can't get myself to edit it. As you know I cut out ai turn time which takes a boring 1 hour per epsiode to complete. Does anyone know a way to automatically remove parts of a video with no visual movement? (graphics come to a compelte halt AI's have their turn with minimize ai turn time enabled)If so please tell me because I am getting to the point where I am getting sick of maintaining the lets play which isn't good. And don't even think about me uploading the episodes without cutting out ai turn time... It's already 40 seconds per turn!
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