CB/XB Rushing Help?

[RaidandTrade]

I've been reading a bit about CB rushes or even XB rushes and people clearing their continent or even Pangea.

I've tried a few of each on Immortal and Deity and trying various social paths (I.e., Liberty, Honor or Tradition) and various tech paths (i.e., rush to tech or detour via Writing/Education) but end up running into issues.

Usually they're one or more of:
- Not enough cash to upgrade so timing is off
- Unit spam and then tech surprise as pikes or muskets emerge
- Unit spam that I keep killing off until suddenly the 20-something defence city builds up to 40-something and my nearly-range promoted guys get one-shotted...
- Take one or two cities then happiness tanks
- Tech rate slows and I get spanked
- Chewing through a Civ and then Monty/Denmark/Shaka sends a Carpet of Doom to my Capital.

When starting the attack, I usually go with six CB/XB and 1-2 warrior/spear line and try to send a couple more CB/XB to rotate in if production is decent and the build queue permits.

I try not to build too many buildings but maybe I still am. Typically, I’m building:
- Granary
- Library
- National College
- Coliseum (when not happy)
- Writer’s Guild (if I haven’t quit)
- Artist’s Guild
- Universities
- Observatory (where relevant)
- Markets
- Caravans/Cargo Ships
- Work boats (for lux only)

I usually found only one or two expos at the most and try for unique lux and strategics. I try to steal workers and usually manage 1 - 2 in the early game from a nearby Civ or a CS if I can find a good hunting spot.

I typically send trade routes to other Civs to leach science or to a CS to fulfil quests and try to ally the CS near me or near my targets.

On Deity I can usually hit the science lead in Renaissance but if I go too warry I drop off until I start stealing and/or bulbing so feel I never have the edge to safely keep momentum rolling to the point where I could steam-roll a continent.

So on to my specific questions:
1. When do you decide whether to rush and which rush you'll do?
2. Do you detour for education or really rush?
3. Do you try to grow your self-founded cities or just the capital?
4. Do you XP farm prior to war or use war as your XP farm? (I’ve tried both and tend to find war a better XP farm than a CS!)

I’ve watched a few LPs on domination generally (e.g., Pedro's Honor/Autocracy with the Dutch) and read a couple of guides on this forum but hoping to get something on the “early rush” side of things if possible.

Tips, pointers, clues, advice and criticism all appreciated!

 

[consentient]

1. CB rush is an all or nothing gambit much of the time. You decide to do it before your first additional settler is made, and go Monument-Archer-Archer in each of your 2 expos (I recommend 3 city Liberty NC as its been most reliable for me)
2. You go lux techs and bronze working, then beeline Construction.
3. Growth is not an option. Your cities will be tiny on the turn you hit Construction and upgrade your Archers. The idea is to use those CB to snag a nice AI capital and start your Domination sweep.

Q of my own at this point: what turn are you upgrading your troops? 60-65 is good. 65-70 is OK. Past 70 and you're increasing the chances of Pikes with every passing turn.

4. XP farming is nice before T60 but the priority is to build the archers, and save cash.

Watch my Persia LP if you want to see a very typical CB rush on Immortal.

 

[Blatc]

Re: "Unit spam that I keep killing off..." - try bribing the target civ to DOW another civ that will move their units away from you; do this ~5 turns before you plan to attack. If you do it only 1-2 turns before, their units haven't moved much; 10+ turns before, and they could make peace and return before you've done any real damage (and you've spent more gold/lux on the bribe).

Founding only one expo will make science a struggle unless you've got great dirt or capture your first capital quickly and keep rolling (in which case you wouldn't have started this thread). Even if you start with Comp bows, you should still target getting to Machinery ASAP.

Aim to capture more than 2 workers. Perhaps build 1-2 more scouts or buy a scout as soon as you hit 140 gold.

1. When do you decide whether to rush and which rush you'll do?
-CB rush requires a very quick start in which you settle expos and connect luxuries quickly. If your starting area is luxuries on jungle/marsh/water it'll take longer to connect vs if you only need mining and/or calendar. Consider whether the luxury techs are on the path to other must-have techs or out of the way (Trapping/Sailing); this may impact your expo locations. It can also be worth considering what luxury techs your first target capital city has: if they're the same as where you were going to put a 3rd expo (4th city overall), maybe that city isn't necessary.

2. Do you detour for education or really rush?
-I find the main question is do you get Philosophy/National College or Construction/Comp Bows first. The answer partly depends on whether you will build the NC or use a GE from Liberty finisher; if the latter, you can likely tech Construction first.
-Machinery before Education

3. Do you try to grow your self-founded cities or just the capital?
-to get Machinery fast they need to grow a bit, but the capital (which will have NC) is more important
-if you're definitely starting war with Comp Bows and won't grow expos much, you're likely better off building 1 less expo: those hammers could be used towards archers and you don't stunt capital growth as much

4. Do you XP farm prior to war or use war as your XP farm? (I’ve tried both and tend to find war a better XP farm than a CS!)
-I haven't XP farmed on city states for quite a while; more commonly I will target nearby barb camps if appropriate but otherwise using war as XP farm. If anything, I've given more priority to city growth/science to arrive at Machinery faster vs. getting units out and XP farming on a CS

 

[beetle]

Thank you OP for outlining my own difficulty so clearly! The other road block I frequently face gold for upgrades. I will have six archers and a couple melee units, most everyone trained up on barbs, and timely construction -- but no where near the amount of gold I need.

1. CB rush is an all or nothing gambit much of the time...
4. XP farming is nice before T60 but the priority is to build the archers, and save cash.

The advice in this thread have been especially helpful for me.

I always try and pivot from failed CB rush to XB rush. (Which also usually fails to get traction.) From this thread, if the CB push fails to get me a cap, then I should reload and try again. Chalk the game up quickly as a loss rather than trying to recover!

So my only advise to OP to separate out the questions. I now think an XB rush looks different than a CB rush. My trying to stack them has resulted in what you report in your OP.

 

[consentient]

To clarify, a CB rush requires a fairly good start, and a DEDICATED strategy. Trying for CB rush and missing the window is actually very detrimental to a XB rush. You're getting to Machinery slower this way. To hit Machinery early you want to rush Philosophy for NC so you can beeline Machinery with a higher science output. You still go for Machinery before Education, but if you beelined Construction first you slowed yourself down. I'm not sure how many turns, but I reckon 10-15.

Classic XB rush is the Netherlands Peddroelm game. He sets up his target and hits Machinery right on time.

CB rush is all or nothing. If you fail, you can still win, but it will be much harder for having missed your first window.

XB rush takes longer to setup but you can still miss the window if your intended victim has a nasty Medieval UU (Harald, Shaka, etc.)

With those guys you want to try to wipe them out with a combined Archer/CB rush. War early, and relentlessly (though not carelessly). Take out their spearmen and only move in on the city when you have a mix of archers and CBs (or the Berserkers/Impi are starting to spawn). Take the city, use the city attacks and play defensive until you can regroup, then wipe them out.

This is really tricky on Deity though (Archer/CB rush). On DCL #4 I restarted a bunch of times until I was able to take out Shaka. It's pretty easy on Immortal, as Shaka is a pale representation of his Deity self. I took him out with Pictish Warriors on the ICL.

 

[SooHongLoo]

I think this boils down to a players style. I have read better players not even worry about CBs like Glory_7 for instance who actually uses archers much longer than most players and builds roads all around the enemy to be able to move in and out with ease. It seems he likes to get more XP from CS city attack to get to Range/Log faster and after that upgrade.

I know for instance in my own Dom games that they will take longer... turn 315-395 and many times I have stalemated attacks or very slow Tech Rate getting to Edu after turn 120. Sometimes I am very late to Machinery and tech Edu first.

I am not saying this happens all the time but many of Dom wins for myself have been very slow going and I can be 15% or more behind in Tech pace. Funny thing is that if you persist and keep taking cities/capitals it is just a matter of time before your Tech Rate starts to get ahead.

The problem is that it can be a very long slog for a long time and you have to be able to use some RAs with far neighbors. Most players give up if Bombers appear and they don't have AA but once again I have won many games pushing through. Once again, it will feel hopeless and I am sure most players want to cut through the AI like butter but I find it rewarding to slog through to victory.

Another key is getting nukes which is almost certain before any AI in this game so that helps. The main thing that I struggle with is getting up an Air Force. I read all these games where players have huge Air Forces and crush the AI but I never have been able to do that. My attacks rely on CBs or XBs. After that it is usually Artillery into Rocket Artillery and Nukes with Paratroopers.

So once again I believe it all boils down to play style because I have never seen any players do what I do and I am not sure that they want to because it isn't very optimal or smooth. My problem is when I try to emulate Acken, Glory_7, Grendeldef, IronfighterXXX, or other great players I never seem to be able to replicate what they do because I am stuck in my own system which works for me for some odd reason.

I think this goes for Consentient as well. If you notice he was struggling just a few months ago and now he cuts through the AI like butter. Even after he wrote a lengthy warmonger guide it seems his style is his style and I haven't seen anyone really be able to follow his style. One thing is for sure, he does not like when the game slogs. One reason is his machine that he plays on and the other is that he has said that he gets bored of killing unit after unit after unit. I can understand that.

So my advice is to read all the info but find out what works for you. Try not to get to formulaic in this game unless that is exactly what you want because you will be surprised to find out that we have many paths to victory in the base game even if you are 20% behind in tech in the middle of your game!

 

[fimbul]

Some of my thoughts on this:

1. CB rush and XB rush are very different. I dont like to use CB rush unless (a) on a small continent and 1/2 neighbour's terrain is conducive, or (b) Shaka is nearby. 3 City Lib and hit them around T65 (Lux tech and then bee-line construction). I dont quite like it since i think it tanks your infra-buildup too much and takes forever to recover happiness so the capital can grow.

XB rush for me is 3-5 city Lib with NC, then machinary beeline ~T100. I nearly always do it. The only roadblocks on XB for me are (a) really bad terrain (jungles/hills), (b) great wall , (c) shaka. I feel this method is a lot better since cracking open AI capitals from T100-T130 is like opening presents at christmas - nice infra build-up, wonders, all tiles improved!

2. Tech path - always machinary first. Education is an investment in the future - XB rushing is about maxmising firepower now so that the AI is completely blindsided. The later you go - more advanced units pop-out, castles get built... Much harder.

3. Dont think it really matters if you go liberty, more important to found cities quickly. earlier cities = faster science, faster infra (NC) done so that unit spam can begin.

4. Exp Farm. I have never managed to do any successful CS exp farm so I cant comment. Logistics/range XB definately make conquest a breeze though.

Some of the other issues:

Happiness tanks when conquering - important to plan out extend of conquest and luxuries in the area. If not a lot of unique luxuries, dont found too many of own cities. for me 3/4 on continents, 4/5 on pangae.

Gold for pre-build upgrade - friends are the source of GC. highly dependent on starting area though; if not many spare lux/strat resources life will be difficult. Caravans to AI can help a bit even though their primary use is science leech. it seems that sending caravans help to DOF and receive caravans but i might be wrong.

Also important to weaken AI - early war bribes can be useful (AI is forced to caravan to you if he is at war with his neighbour). A few turns before declare on AI - bribe him to war neighbour, he will move troops. easier conquest + he will be stuck in two front war + diplo boost with other AI (fight against common foe)

Of course it is much easier to watch video with narration- strongly reccomend Acken LP. His china one ridiculous! Goes from CB rush to XB domination. Godly.

 

[stormtrooper412]

CB rush is very hard to do well on Deity. I executed it a few times but with a horrible follow through. Meanwhile, if you get XBs in good time, like I did in England game, I ate the entire continent in 20 or so turns, it felt like the Settler level

 

[RaidandTrade]

Thanks for the replies. I’ve watched a few LPs and changed my game plan in light of some of the advice here. Last couple of attempts have had some noticeable improvement.

Summary of my latest game plan:
- Liberty (Left Side, Right Side), Commerce (but may change over to Honor)
- Base techs -> Lux Tech -> Construction -> Engineering (-> Optics if I need to swim) -> Machinery -> Education
- 1 (or 2 if I’m lucky) Worker steals from a Civ and 2 - 3 from my “perma-war” CS - getting better at this
- XP farming only when convenient and not as a “must do”. (I’d previously had a few goes at trying to XP farm up to range promotion by which time I was out-gunned).
- Slaughter commencing around the late 60s / early 70s with CBs or a mix of CBs and Archers
- Ignoring wonders. Used to do Pyramids for the free workers and faster improvement times but this slows down Archer production

Challenges:
Terrain - Bottlenecks and cities that stand between me and another notch on the victory belt

Diplomacy - I’ve previously wiped out entire Civs in order to not have them come back from the dead and bite me. I guess the key is to see who you can take without taking out completely first. (Last game, the only way to Jakarta was through two cities). I put Genghis in a few games in order to liberate City States but that seems to have no noticeable impact on my warmonger tag.

War buddies - I’m trying to invite people to join me in war with others. Sometimes they agree then do me over. (Harald, Ashurbanipal).

Roads - Need to build more of them but feels like I’m bleeding cash. (Probably related to my Diplo issue).

Looking forward to the next attempt. Thanks for the advice/recommendations so far!


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[RaidandTrade]

Went back to immortal for practice but took Shaka so went for a CB + Impi Rush. That was fun. Awful continent and ended up needing (swimming) artillery and cavalry for the last two civs.

Fired up Deity again but it's the spam that's killing me. I've tried a few CB rushes now but most games go in the bin around turn 100.

Cycle goes something like:

Kill units.
Worker bait to draw unit out.
Step in.
City down a half to two thirds.
Unit(s) appear.
Step out.
Repeat.

My units take damage assaulting the city so eventually I either withdraw and the window is closed or I start losing units or someone else DOWs me while I'm building aqueducts or something else important to get me happy or solvent or closer to XBs.

How can I counter the spamming?

Will try XB Rush on continents to clear my continent then go for swimming artillery for "continent two" and see if that nets me better results...


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[stormtrooper412]

Same here

However, a Logistics XB is VERY powerful and they can oneshot (well, two shot technically) most units and can also seriously cripple a Musket. There is a small window during which the unit spam is slowed and you can move in and take out a city in 2-3 turns before reinforcement show up, and naturally, I usually miss that window and wars become stalemates and I have to abandon.

I executed a near perfect continental assault in the England DCL map, where I hit Machinery around T110 and had 10+ Longbows at the ready. It didn't feel like Deity at all, I have completely blindsided the neighbors so I'm inclined to believe the CB rush is quite hard to pull off consistently on Deity but the XB rush is a completely different story

 

[beetle]

...and naturally, I usually miss that window and wars become stalemates and I have to abandon.

My usual pattern exactly!

I'm inclined to believe the CB rush is quite hard to pull off consistently on Deity but the XB rush is a completely different story

The Catch 22 that I seem to face is that if I try to shift from CB rush to XB rush then my XBs have logistics but they are too late and their window of utility too short. OTOH if I aim or an XB rush from the start then they take too long to get logistics, and again the window of opportunity closes. Then there are games where I have well promoted CBs and early machinery -- but not enough money to upgrade for a dozen turns or more...

 

[stormtrooper412]

That's the thing really. At turn 120ish, 10 XBs don't really need Logistics to be deadly

 

[Light Cleric]

You do want a little growth early to get slightly better beakers, but for the most part consentient is right and your cities will be small.

The gold is probably the biggest roadblock. Don't be afraid to sell your luxuries ASAP either even if they make you unhappy and leave your expos at 1 pop. That 7 GPT will almost upgrade 3 CBs by itself by the end of the deal. If you think your luxuries are going to be very late to get up and running and you can't settle on a lux with your capital or your expansions you may want to consider a different strategy.

Also watch your neighbor and what policies they're taking. There are certain AIs that will go Iron Working and/or Construction very early. For example in my experience Carthage, the Inca, and Rome all go that route very early; I routinely see Pachacuti with like t45 CBs which is just disgusting. On the other hand some guys like Monty will walk around with basic units(Jaguars+Archers) for quite a long time.

 

[reddishrecue]

CB rushing could be silly sometimes because CB dont always get to survive. Its the XB rush that really kills. CBs get massacred by early knights anyway. Not to mention zulu impi rush.

 

[reddishrecue]

That's the thing really. At turn 120ish, 10 XBs don't really need Logistics to be deadly

That would be overpowered in a way. Domination would be much easier.

 

[reddishrecue]

Went back to immortal for practice but took Shaka so went for a CB + Impi Rush. That was fun. Awful continent and ended up needing (swimming) artillery and cavalry for the last two civs.

Fired up Deity again but it's the spam that's killing me. I've tried a few CB rushes now but most games go in the bin around turn 100.

Cycle goes something like:

Kill units.
Worker bait to draw unit out.
Step in.
City down a half to two thirds.
Unit(s) appear.
Step out.
Repeat.

My units take damage assaulting the city so eventually I either withdraw and the window is closed or I start losing units or someone else DOWs me while I'm building aqueducts or something else important to get me happy or solvent or closer to XBs.

How can I counter the spamming?

Will try XB Rush on continents to clear my continent then go for swimming artillery for "continent two" and see if that nets me better results...


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Mass AI spams could be conquered with more ranged units with barrack and armory promotions (if posible) military cs alliances that donate units your cause and of course good overall empire economical management. Getting these things William ver you many kills and many experiences to your units depending on the terrain youre on. Sea ranged units aré really helpful and keeping your ranged units on hills can give you a better advantage.

 

[stormtrooper412]

That would be overpowered in a way. Domination would be much easier.

Because it totally is. And if the XB replacement is something that's just silly like the Longbow, you're looking at a very short war

 

[reddishrecue]

Because it totally is. And if the XB replacement is something that's just silly like the Longbow, you're looking at a very short war

Right, you wouldnt even need honor for these units, chukonu and longbows.