CBob01 AWM Training Day Game

[Phaedo]

Boys, play nice now

productive criticism is always good but being critical is rarely effective. The computer screen doesn't always allow for the nuances of communication to come through so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt and try to phrase comments in a sensitive way. It seems that Norton's retort may have been a bit reactionary but the comment he was responding to could have been a bit more diplomatic.

Tribute has had some great input to the game and Norton has been one of the stronger additions to the team. After seeing Cbob's set it looks like Norton got the raw end of the laws of probability. If we are going to question any of his decesions, let's be specific about the decesions we disagree with

So kiss and make up and on with the game

Good luck Aabra

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment: Maybe you should start a pre-build for the UN.

 

[Norton II]

lurker's comment: Maybe you should start a pre-build for the UN.

Now that's a useful wonder in AW! OK, so it's useful for denial if the game actually gets to the modern age. Hopefully, it won't.

Now for the rest: I admit that I overreacted earlier; maybe I should have waited until this morning to reply to Tribute's post instead of right after getting home from work last night. I'll admit I made some errors in judgement during my turnset; for example, I should've gotten walls up sooner, and a spearman on Hittite Mountain if I could have managed it (though maybe not with all those archers approaching), and perhaps I should have gotten the workers near RR to safety after building the mine and not bothered with the road. Attacking, however, was not a mistake; the odds were well in my favor every time. For that matter, the odds were usually in my favor on defense, too, or at least it was close to even. It was also not a mistake to finish irrigating the flood plain, even if the worker was threatened.

@Aabraxan: Good luck with your set. Hopefully, I used up all the bad luck on mine.

 

[Aabraxan]

Looks good, CB!

I guess I'm up. I had totally lost track of the roster, but I'll grab the save tonight, but it'll be a couple of days before I can play. That being the case, here's what I see. Comments invited.

MM is at size 6, growth in one. I won't want the granary to empty, so I'm going to slow growth to 4 turns (one after the settler) if possible.

Spearmen are nice, cheap defenders. I think we need more swords, though. We can't go on the offensive solely with archers and spears.

Black dot looks like the best currently available position for a new city. I don't see an available escort though. Am considering changing SSP to a spear for that.

 

[Norton II]

Looks good, CB!

I guess I'm up. I had totally lost track of the roster, but I'll grab the save tonight, but it'll be a couple of days before I can play. That being the case, here's what I see. Comments invited.

MM is at size 6, growth in one. I won't want the granary to empty, so I'm going to slow growth to 4 turns (one after the settler) if possible.

Spearmen are nice, cheap defenders. I think we need more swords, though. We can't go on the offensive solely with archers and spears.

Black dot looks like the best currently available position for a new city. I don't see an available escort though. Am considering changing SSP to a spear for that.

You're right about swords, though we probably shouldn't go on the offensive for a little while yet, especially if a 3-man chariot wins a battle during your set. Do we need an escort for the black dot settler? It's well away from the front, and nobody has map making. Wouldn't hurt anything, though.

 

[Aabraxan]

Do we need an escort for the black dot settler? It's well away from the front, and nobody has map making. Wouldn't hurt anything, though.

Even if we really don't need an escort, I don't want to leave a city totally undefended. So I need a spear to go there. To be honest, I don't know what map making has to do with it, though. (Not being a smart-aleck, here. I really don't know).

And I'm not planning on going on the offensive on my turnset. I'm just planning on beginning preparations.

 

[Bucephalus]

Even if we really don't need an escort, I don't want to leave a city totally undefended. So I need a spear to go there. To be honest, I don't know what map making has to do with it, though.

lurker's comment: With MM comes galleys.

 

[Aabraxan]

Also, if we've got Lit in 1t, I'm planning on going with Math next, to be followed by Construction. That puts us on the path to the GW, just in case we miss the GLib.

As always, thanks, Bucephalus.

 

[Norton II]

Also, if we've got Lit in 1t, I'm planning on going with Math next, to be followed by Construction. That puts us on the path to the GW, just in case we miss the GLib.

As always, thanks, Bucephalus.

Sounds good to me. Once we finish researching Lit, it becomes cheaper for the other civs to research, makin gthem more likely to research it. So yes, it's good to have a backup. The only problem I see is that the GW costs 300 shields and the GLib 400, so if we miss the latter, we might miss the former in a cascade. One other thing: be sure to offer up sacrifices to the RNG gods in the hopes of obtaining an SGL next turn. Then we won't have to worry about cascades.

 

[CivActuary]

Sounds good to me. Once we finish researching Lit, it becomes cheaper for the other civs to research, makin gthem more likely to research it. So yes, it's good to have a backup. The only problem I see is that the GW costs 300 shields and the GLib 400, so if we miss the latter, we might miss the former in a cascade. One other thing: be sure to offer up sacrifices to the RNG gods in the hopes of obtaining an SGL next turn. Then we won't have to worry about cascades.

While it would be a nice surprise, I'm not expecting an SGL. It's only what, 5% chance? Plus, we don't know what's going on over on the other continent - for all we know they could be ahead of us.

Where do we stand tech-wise against the other civs? Just curious, I'm at work now and can't look at the save.

Do we have an idea how long Math+Construction will take? When should we fit HBR in? Since the horsies are not hooked up yet (I think so, anyway) Math next would seem to me to be the best course.

My apologies Norton if I put workers in untenable situations for you. I thought the moves you made were quite good, anyone can have bad RNG luck.

 

[Norton II]

While it would be a nice surprise, I'm not expecting an SGL. It's only what, 5% chance? Plus, we don't know what's going on over on the other continent - for all we know they could be ahead of us.

Where do we stand tech-wise against the other civs? Just curious, I'm at work now and can't look at the save.

Do we have an idea how long Math+Construction will take? When should we fit HBR in? Since the horsies are not hooked up yet (I think so, anyway) Math next would seem to me to be the best course.

My apologies Norton if I put workers in untenable situations for you. I thought the moves you made were quite good, anyone can have bad RNG luck.

No need to apologize; the workers were where they should have been, doing what they should have been doing. Maybe the workers in the south could have been kept back, but it's good that we have that mined BG now. Soon, it might even be safe to improve the other one.

I'm not counting on an SGL either, though lit is probably our best chance for one; even if the other continent is ahead of us (and they might not be since there can be three civs on that continent at most), they probably skipped over lit for now. On the tech situation, I was wrong earlier: two other civs do have map making (sorry, Aabra). Here's the breakdown:

America: up CB, math, and HBR
Hittites: up all those techs and map making
Germany: same as the Hittites
Babylon: down writing, up CB and HBR

At current research output (15 beakers per turn), it would take 12 turns to research math, followed by 36 (!) for construction. HBR would take 7 turns. Also, we do have horses hooked up. Should HBR be next instead? Maybe it should at least be before construction.

 

[CommandoBob]

When should we fit HBR in? Since the horsies are not hooked up yet (I think so, anyway) Math next would seem to me to be the best course.

The horses are connected but we can't ride them yet.

On War
Compared to the Hittites we are strong.
Compared to Germany we are weak.
Compared to Babylon and America we are average.

The Hittites will continue to attack us.
Germany will attack us, unless the barbarians interfere.
Babylon and America will attack us, but not as strongly (they are less aggressive).

So what to do?

I think we have agreed to take out the Hittites first. To do we need to make sure that Germany will not be a problem. After all, to them, we are the weak ones. Which means we need walls and spears in the north, with at least some archers to shoot back.

Before we begin to march to the Blue-Green Boys we need to be reasonably sure of our northern defenses, especially in YarYar. YY needs walls and at least four units inside; two defenders and two attackers. Silly St. Peteys needs walls but only two, maybe three defenders. OneHorseTown, walls and three defenders.

While we build these units and get them into postion, we keep building vSwords as fast as we can. Once we get the German shield in place we can focus more on the Hittites and perhaps get a one front war.

During the time of the Hittite and Babylonian wars I think we need to consider about filling the NE corner of Russia with cities, in addition to filling the gaps we will be making in the south. Building north would rid us of the barbarians and give us more cities making instruments of war.

I don't see us moving towards the Hittites for about ten turns, but that is just a guess.

We have one barracks and one due in about 6 turns. Both of these are in our south, but we can't put one in the north (lack of shields). So, after we get the second sword built I think we should begin to crank out vSpears and get them moving northwards. We have enough units in the south to handle any further Hittite incursions. Let's figure on about 10 vSpears before we switch over to vSwords.

This is just a rough sketch of how I would play this solo. And in a nutshell it boils down to becoming a very tough nut to crack (strong defenses) before we become the nutcracker. In a solo game, I would probably plan on about 20 turns before I began to attack the Hittites.

However, this is just one plan and it may not be the best.

 

[CivActuary]

No need to apologize; the workers were where they should have been, doing what they should have been doing. Maybe the workers in the south could have been kept back, but it's good that we have that mined BG now. Soon, it might even be safe to improve the other one.

I'm not counting on an SGL either, though lit is probably our best chance for one; even if the other continent is ahead of us (and they might not be since there can be three civs on that continent at most), they probably skipped over lit for now. On the tech situation, I was wrong earlier: two other civs do have map making (sorry, Aabra). Here's the breakdown:

America: up CB, math, and HBR
Hittites: up all those techs and map making
Germany: same as the Hittites
Babylon: down writing, up CB and HBR

At current research output (15 beakers per turn), it would take 12 turns to research math, followed by 36 (!) for construction. HBR would take 7 turns. Also, we do have horses hooked up. Should HBR be next instead? Maybe it should at least be before construction.

Re: Next city. I would prefer not send an undefended settler then to black dot if 2 civs have MM.

Re: Horsies. D'oh! I missed that on the screenshots. If that's the case I'd push for HBR next. I like having some fast units around. I think we need them more than Cats, though Cats would improve our loss ratio.

 

[Norton II]

The horses are connected but we can't ride them yet.

On War
Compared to the Hittites we are strong.
Compared to Germany we are weak.
Compared to Babylon and America we are average.

The Hittites will continue to attack us.
Germany will attack us, unless the barbarians interfere.
Babylon and America will attack us, but not as strongly (they are less aggressive).

So what to do?

I think we have agreed to take out the Hittites first. To do we need to make sure that Germany will not be a problem. After all, to them, we are the weak ones. Which means we need walls and spears in the north, with at least some archers to shoot back.

Before we begin to march to the Blue-Green Boys we need to be reasonably sure of our northern defenses, especially in YarYar. YY needs walls and at least four units inside; two defenders and two attackers. Silly St. Peteys needs walls but only two, maybe three defenders. OneHorseTown, walls and three defenders.

While we build these units and get them into postion, we keep building vSwords as fast as we can. Once we get the German shield in place we can focus more on the Hittites and perhaps get a one front war.

During the time of the Hittite and Babylonian wars I think we need to consider about filling the NE corner of Russia with cities, in addition to filling the gaps we will be making in the south. Building north would rid us of the barbarians and give us more cities making instruments of war.

I don't see us moving towards the Hittites for about ten turns, but that is just a guess.

We have one barracks and one due in about 6 turns. Both of these are in our south, but we can't put one in the north (lack of shields). So, after we get the second sword built I think we should begin to crank out vSpears and get them moving northwards. We have enough units in the south to handle any further Hittite incursions. Let's figure on about 10 vSpears before we switch over to vSwords.

This is just a rough sketch of how I would play this solo. And in a nutshell it boils down to becoming a very tough nut to crack (strong defenses) before we become the nutcracker. In a solo game, I would probably plan on about 20 turns before I began to attack the Hittites.

However, this is just one plan and it may not be the best.

Sounds like a plan. I'd also like to get a city or two built in the east to protect MM from coastal landings.

 

[Bucephalus]

If that's the case I'd push for HBR next. I like having some fast units around. I think we need them more than Cats, though Cats would improve our loss ratio.

lurker's comment: I'd say that is spot-on; but when you begin to advance, those Cats will make all the difference. IMO, they are the Human player's biggest advantage; used properly, they are game breakers all through the Ages. And the AI is clueless in their use.

 

[CivActuary]

I'd say that is spot-on; but when you begin to advance, those Cats will make all the difference. IMO, they are the Human player's biggest advantage; used properly, they are game breakers all through the Ages. And the AI is clueless in their use.

Absolutely agree. We can get evidently get HBR in 7. By that time another civ may know Math, and it may be even cheaper. After we get Math, our non-barrack cities should then produce enough cats to go on the offensive. Our other forces should be ready by then.

 

[Aabraxan]

I've looked over these posts and have to change my stance on Next Tech. I say go for HBR next, then math. Chariots are just about useless and I'd rather just skip them and go straight for Horsemen. Also, cats are 10 shields less (20 as opposed to 30), so we should be able to produce them faster.

 

[Aabraxan]

I got the save, but won't have time to play tonight.

For those of you reading posts from work:
We're producing 22 beakers per turn at 70% research.
We lack 15 beakers on Lit.
Math costs 170.
HBR costs 96.

We're up Writing on the Babs.

We're down:
America: CB, HBR, Math
Hittites: CB, HBR, Math, Map Making
Germany: CB, HBR, Math, Map Making
Babs: CB, HBR

 

[Tribute]

Well, I was a little annoyed, actually; in your earlier post, you sounded as if you thought I was just stationing units outside cities for no good reason. In my judgement, the tiles that I improved needed to be improved. MM needed a second irrigated flood plain for rapid growth, and the worker there at the beginning of my turnset could easily have been captured by the Germans if I had not protected it. Also, the two workers down by RR were there when I started, and increasing that city's production seemed important, given that we need some high-shield cities for our military, and RR has the best production potential of any city other than the capital. Maybe I should've moved those workers back and had them chop the forest 2 N of RR instead, but there's not a lot that can be done about that now. I should also note that I didn't exacly leave archers holed up in the cities; in fact, I sent 3 of them to their deaths at the hands of the (P)RNG.

Yeah, it wasn't your fault at all. Sorry for blaming you when the RNG was at fault. Only the RNG can make you lose 3 archers on attack like that against 1 defense opponents. It's probably a good thing you saved the rest, after all.

Oh, and if you're going to get the GLib, all you really need is HBr and Math (maybe Map Making, but curraghs will suffice if you are lax on coastal defenses. It is not that curraghs are that great; they are just cheap and fun to use. And that's not mentioningthe 50% chance of winning, which is actually in your favor; If you lose, another can attack a more likely WOUNDED galley and let you win that. And if you win, at least, you're allowed to heal your ship since the AI won't attack.)

Cities east on the coast would be nice, and like I said for the prebuild for the GLib, the black dot is nice unless you get boxed in and can use Moscow. I actually kind of hope you find somebody; that would help you stop research sooner and upgrade warriors.

 

[Norton II]

Yeah, it wasn't your fault at all. Sorry for blaming you when the RNG was at fault. Only the RNG can make you lose 3 archers on attack like that against 1 defense opponents. It's probably a good thing you saved the rest, after all.

Oh, and if you're going to get the GLib, all you really need is HBr and Math (maybe Map Making, but curraghs will suffice if you are lax on coastal defenses. It is not that curraghs are that great; they are just cheap and fun to use. And that's not mentioningthe 50% chance of winning, which is actually in your favor; If you lose, another can attack a more likely WOUNDED galley and let you win that. And if you win, at least, you're allowed to heal your ship since the AI won't attack.)

Cities east on the coast would be nice, and like I said for the prebuild for the GLib, the black dot is nice unless you get boxed in and can use Moscow. I actually kind of hope you find somebody; that would help you stop research sooner and upgrade warriors.

Thanks, Tribute. Yeah, that definitely wasn't fun, especially losing a regular archer on attack to an unfortified conscript barb warrior on a hill. Not to mention the spearman I lost to a German warrior. Of course, the (P)RNG tends to even out over the course of a game; it just doesn't necessarily do so over 10 turns.

As for the rest, it might be a while before we meet anyone else; I don't think there's another civ on our continent. Also, we can just build the GLib now, since we get lit in 1 turn; no need for prebuilds.

Also, earlier I was mistaken about the turns required for each tech; for some reason, I thought we were getting 15 beakers per turn instead of 22. We can get HBR in 5, math in 9, and construction in 25. The last two might come down a bit. Also, we can get map making in 13.