Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[mr_2_you]

after looking at the save, there are a few things that MUST be decided during my turnset that i feel deserve consideration here:

1) we either need to end this war quickly (which may be difficult to due with no ships in position to wipe out the eastern islands) or switch governments. i considered switching to monarchy since communism isn't on our current research path. i will prosecute this war to the best of my ability as a republic, but the lux slider is getting REAL expensive and i'm not sure i can wipe out the romans (due to their lucky positioning) during my turnset... at the end of which, our civ will be in complete disorder.

2)are we going to build leo's workshop or not? if we decide to switch after five turns, we're going to waste shields switching to a military academy. i vote for the military academy.

3)america is already sending settler/spear combos down towards the former roman area. if we initiate war against them now as a republic, our civ will crumble under war weariness before we can get up there to wipe them out. ideas?

weigh in please. i'll check this in the morning before playing tomorrow.

 

[Salarakas]

First of all, I think it should be Buce's turn now. I'm not sure though so Phaedo, could you give us an update about the current situation?

1. I don't see any reason to stop the wars or switch to monarchy/communism. Yes, there's some war weariness and it won't go away but we can easily rise the lux slider if need be and we'll soon get another lux resource connected which will help. Just do you best to lose as few troops as you can (while making swift progress on the same time as well) and it shouldn't be a problem.

I'd like to hear more opinions about what techs to research, if any. I vote for 0% research at this point. If you really want to do some research then go towards replaceable parts. With 0% research we could run something crazy like 80% lux if needed

2. Military academy I say.

3. Declare war on them when you run out of things to kill. We can't attack the Germans for 9(?) turns unless we break the treaty.

 

[Aabraxan]

Ravenna, Veii, Pompeii and Antium are all on flat ground so the chance of losing when attacking the 4/4 pikes with 4/4 cossacks is 14%. No need to redline the defenders first with the slow cannon units. If we lose a cossack or two it doesn't matter much as we bring in more and more from the mainland all the time to replace the lost ones.

What I meant by my earlier comment ("I would use the armies only for capturing towns at this point") was that there's no point in using the armies for attacking stray units outside towns as the cossacks can take care of them easily enough. The armies should only be used for attacking towns unless there's something important that needs to be taken care of first. I hope I didn't scare you into playing more defensively than you would have otherwise.

Ordinarily, I do play more aggressively than I did in that turnset, but I was trying very hard not to lose units. I don't know how long this war has gone on, but as you can see from the riots that I had to deal with, war weariness is an issue at this point. If anything scared me into playing defensively, though, I'd wager is was the loss of a 17-HP cossack army which was fortified in a town to Roman MI on the last bit of your turnset.

 

[mr_2_you]

First of all, I think it should be Buce's turn now. I'm not sure though so Phaedo, could you give us an update about the current situation?

oh. i'll hold off until we hear from phaedo.

 

[Aabraxan]

I think Mr_2_You brings up a couple of points that will need to be addressed during the next turnset, whoever the next player is.

1) we either need to end this war quickly (which may be difficult to due with no ships in position to wipe out the eastern islands) or switch governments. i considered switching to monarchy since communism isn't on our current research path. i will prosecute this war to the best of my ability as a republic, but the lux slider is getting REAL expensive and i'm not sure i can wipe out the romans (due to their lucky positioning) during my turnset... at the end of which, our civ will be in complete disorder.

1) I don't see any reason to stop the wars, at least until we've cleansed our continent of the Rotten Romans. Please do not switch to monarchy. Until we've wiped Rome off the other continent (which should only be a few turns), we don't need the anarchy. I'm looking at the file in CAII. We've gathered 533 beakers (1 turn's worth) towards electricity. I hate to lose 500+ beakers, but we might consider going straight to communism after electricity. If we're not going to grab ToE (and it sounds like my miscalculations may mean that we're not), then we could grab communism next.

2)are we going to build leo's workshop or not? if we decide to switch after five turns, we're going to waste shields switching to a military academy. i vote for the military academy.

2) I don't think we're building Leo's. I forgot to take Medicine into account, so I don't think it will work as a prebuild for ToE. While the cheaper upgrades would be awfully nice in a longer war, I don't think we'll have much to upgrade before the game ends. Switch to Military Academy, I say.

3)america is already sending settler/spear combos down towards the former roman area. if we initiate war against them now as a republic, our civ will crumble under war weariness before we can get up there to wipe them out. ideas?

3) Not necessarily. We can produce settlers a whole lot faster than the Americans, simply because they don't have that many towns. We have 88 cities, America has 8. Plant antother city by Nuremberg (so that our territory covers the whole chokepoint) and, every time they set foot in our lands, order them out. Eventually, they'll declare war on us and we can have some war happiness.

@Salarakas & research: Two things I'd still like to see: The first is communism because (a) I've never used it; and (b) going commie has always been part of the plan for this game. (Not that we really need it for this game). The second is replaceable parts, but that's just because artillery totally rocks. That said, I'd be OK with 0% or 10% research at this point. You're right: we've got the techs we need to win this game.

 

[Bucephalus]

If anything scared me into playing defensively, though, I'd wager is was the loss of a 17-HP cossack army which was fortified in a town to Roman MI on the last bit of your turnset.

Then you missed the point entirely; because it has 17hp it becomes the principal defender, so unless you're lucky it never gets a chance to heal. If you're unlucky, you lose it; Cossacks don't defend well even with extra hit points. Being out in the field, pillaging and razing cities, is what Armies do best; they even heal in enemy territory. They simply do not belong in cities.

 

[Phaedo]

As per the roster, Mr_2 is up although If Buce can take it I think I'd like him to take the next set. First, because Buce is techincally a guest player so we can fit him in anywhere in the roster. Secondly, because the game seems to have become a bit out of focus and I think he can help us to focus. And finally, because I'd like to see what he does

I've never really used Communism either Aabra and it was the original pln but I feel things have changed. We lucked out HUGE being able to monopolize iron and I think our greatest learning opportunities are strategic at this point. that means wiping out our opponents as quickly as possible. I think a government change at this point is just a waste. I agree with Sal, run 80% lux if you have to and every shield should go into units (read: cassocks I will forever see our mounted priests riding in to ravage a city). If you load units into a boat in a city, you can use the full movement of the boat then have the units jump to another boat in the same square and use that boat's movement (8 squares in 1 turn and 12 in 2 turns on land or 16 on the water). I don't have the save open but I think that ought to give us a 2 -3 turn ferry. If you really want to protect it, we have some harbor towns that can build a navy but I think that just slows down the win. At this point, we just want to wipe the map clean. If we pick up slaves, we use them to road to our next victim. Forget new cities. A road in neutral territory is as useful as a road in out territory. Raze everything. With extra movement and ship space, upgrade and bring over the artillery although I thik we will find that by the time it is on the continent the cat stack couldn't get to anything in time to matter (thus all shields to cossacks). If you are going to use a settler, use it to build an advance city in which hurt cossacks can heal. When we take a set we should try to destroy as many cities as possible. Change all but one specialist to gold I guess in case that cat stack gets some action and focus on cossack production. We will lose units but the object is to have more reinforcements coming than we lose. Can we try to win this by the 16th century.

If Buce can't take it it's up to you Mr_2

 

[Bucephalus]

Sorry, chickenpox has visited my household for the New Year, and Mrs. Bucephalus is working, so I'm stuck with nursing duties.

Couple of comments though:

I'm not sure that the Military Academy is any less of a 'White Elephant' than Leo's; would there actually be time left to build an Army with it?
I know it goes against the grain to dump so many shields without reward but it happens. Even a very expensive Cossack is better than an impotent Wonder.

Not sure why we would want to honour our deal with Germany at this point, our 'Rep' is hardly relevant now.

@ Mr 2 you: Good luck. Remember that unless they are badly damaged, the Armies will not be attacked outside of cities, so you can use them as cover for healing units if necessary.

Edit:

If it really hurts too much to dump the shields from 'Leo's', then a switch to Industrialisation would give U-Suff, but personally I would switch Research to zero and use the money for cash-rushing Cossacks.

The Romans are putting up little resistance; once they are cleared from the Southern part of the continent it will require going through German territory to get the rest of their cities. That would be inefficient so IMO a DOW on Germany is indicated, possibly using a MA with Abe to split Bismark's forces.

The German island in the SE can't be reached easily, but we can cash-rush a Galleon in former Arabia and send newly manufactured Cossacks. I believe we have a city on that island, so should rush a Rifle before DOW-ing Germany.

 

[Salarakas]

According to my calculations building the military academy will increase the attack strenght of our cossack armies from 10 to 12 (no Pentagon or MA = 9, either P or MA = 10, both = 12). That would be nice when we start attacking the German towns with muskets in them. I would have rather used the 400 shields for cossacks but we've spent so many shields in the prebuild that I feel that we might just as well build the military academy instead of switching to a (very expensive) cossack. The strenght of the medieval infantry army will also increase from 6 to 8.

As for honouring the deal with the Germans... breaking it could be seen as just as big a "cheat" as the no-reloading thing a couple of turnsets ago. Personally I don't mind either way but it's Phaedo's game and unless he states otherwise I feel we should play "fair" and not attack the Germans until it expires.

 

[Salarakas]

There are some tricks to cash-rushing things that can help in situations like these. If you have no shields invested in a build it will cost 8 gold per shield to rush. If you have some shields (doesn't matter how many, 1 is enough) it's only 4 gold per shield. Therefore you should always wait at least 1 turn before rushing.

Also, you can "part-rush" builds by changing to a slightly lower cost build, rushing it and then changing back to the main build. This way you'll waste the minimum amount of shields (and cash).


Example 1:

St. Petersburg is currently making 16 uncorrupted shields. Cossacks are 90 shields = 6 turns.

Turn 0: start building the cossack
Turn 1: with 16 shields in the bank, change the build to a temple (60 shields) and cash rush it for (60-16)*4=176 gold. Then, change the build back to cossack, 2 turns left
Turn 2 and 3: let the build finish.

For 176 gold you got the cossack in 3 turns.


Example 2:

Turn 0: with 0 shields invested, rush the cossack
Turn 1: you get the cossack but it cost you 8*90=720 gold. Not very cost efficient.

For 720 gold you got the cossack in 1 turn.


Example 3:
Turn 0: start building the cossack
Turn 1: rush the cossack for (90-16)*4=296 gold
Turn 2: you get the cossack. Better than example #2 but not as good as #1 unless you're in a big hurry

For 296 gold you got the cossack in 2 turns.




For towns that make 10 shields per turn you should rush a courthouse or a rifleman, both of which are 80 shields a piece. That way you can build cossacks in 2 turns with the help of around 280 gold.

 

[Bucephalus]

As for honouring the deal with the Germans... breaking it could be seen as just as big a "cheat" as the no-reloading thing a couple of turnsets ago. Personally I don't mind either way but it's Phaedo's game and unless he states otherwise I feel we should play "fair" and not attack the Germans until it expires.

Broken treaties are an integral part of the game, that is why there are consequences for breaking them. How can it be considered a 'cheat' when the AI is not only hard-coded to do it, but does so with monotonous regularity?

I didn't know that the MA increases attack strength of Armies; in which case it is definitely the best use of the shields.

 

[Salarakas]

Broken treaties are an integral part of the game, that is why there are consequences for breaking them. How can it be considered a 'cheat' when the AI is not only hard-coded to do it, but does so with monotonous regularity?

Still, if we break the treaty we win 9 turns earlier than we would otherwise. The reloading incident would have only helped by 1 turn or so. In that way, this would be a much bigger cheat. But like I said, I personally don't really care either way. Just pointing it out...

I didn't know that the MA increases attack strength of Armies; in which case it is definitely the best use of the shields.

I made the calculations a couple of pages ago. Might be worth checking out.

 

[Bucephalus]

Still, if we break the treaty we win 9 turns earlier than we would otherwise. The reloading incident would have only helped by 1 turn or so. In that way, this would be a much bigger cheat.

That's not really a valid argument; the same could be said of building and using Armies (how much earlier has that ended the game?) or any other sound tactical decision made.

It all hinges on how you define 'cheat/exploit'; if it is built in to the game mechanics - like breaking treaties - then the AI can do it, and so cannot be a cheat if the human player does it also.

 

[Salarakas]

That's not really a valid argument; the same could be said of building and using Armies (how much earlier has that ended the game?) or any other sound tactical decision made.

It all hinges on how you define 'cheat/exploit'; if it is built in to the game mechanics - like breaking treaties - then the AI can do it, and so cannot be a cheat if the human player does it also.

How about ROP-rape then? It would be a tactically sound decision, the AI sort of does it all the time and it's built into the game mechanics.

It's all about where you draw the line.

 

[Bucephalus]

How about ROP-rape then? It would be a tactically sound decision, the AI sort of does it all the time and it's built into the game mechanics.

It's all about where you draw the line.

I don't have a problem with it for precisely those reasons; you will never get a ROP passage again, so there are consequences to live with.

Just because some players have a personal code of conduct - which I respect - it doesn't make it cheating per se.

Of course, one could argue that ROP Rape is 'cheating' because the AI does it inefficiently, but then you open a can of worms; do you 'outlaw' Artillery stacks or Armies because the AI is also inefficient in their use?

 

[Aabraxan]

My $0.02:

First, and most importantly, @ Buce: I hope everyone recovers quickly in your household.

With regard to the game:

1) I don't really have a problem with breaking the treaty with the Germans. I don't think it's an exploit and our rep isn't really important from a strategic perspective any more.

2) I do have a question about this, though:

If you load units into a boat in a city, you can use the full movement of the boat then have the units jump to another boat in the same square and use that boat's movement (8 squares in 1 turn and 12 in 2 turns on land or 16 on the water).

It sounds like Phaedo wants to be able to move units from one boat to another while in an ocean or sea square. I've read about the "ship-chaining" exploit and this is what I thought it was. Is this an exploit? If not, what's the difference between this and the "ship-chaining" exploit?

Happy New Year, everyone!

 

[Bucephalus]

My $0.02:

First, and most importantly, @ Buce: I hope everyone recovers quickly in your household.

Thanks, mate; Happy New Year to you, too.

With regard to the game:

1) I don't really have a problem with breaking the treaty with the Germans. I don't think it's an exploit and our rep isn't really important from a strategic perspective any more.

2) I do have a question about this, though:



It sounds like Phaedo wants to be able to move units from one boat to another while in an ocean or sea square. I've read about the "ship-chaining" exploit and this is what I thought it was. Is this an exploit? If not, what's the difference between this and the "ship-chaining" exploit?

Happy New Year, everyone!

There is no difference; what Phaedo is proposing is ship-chaining.
Is it an exploit? I guess it depends how one defines it; certainly the AI can't do it. But then they don't make suicide galley runs either, and I don't know of a player who considers that an exploit.

 

[Aabraxan]

There is no difference; what Phaedo is proposing is ship-chaining.
Is it an exploit? I guess it depends how one defines it; certainly the AI can't do it. But then they don't make suicide galley runs either, and I don't know of a player who considers that an exploit.

I did a little research to figure out where I had seen this. I found it in the GOTM rules. It is listed as a known exploit or bug, but is allowed. With the right number of ships and MMing it right, I guess we could have 1-turn transports to the other continent?

 

[Bucephalus]

With the right number of ships and MMing it right, I guess we could have 1-turn transports to the other continent?

Yep, that's it in a nutshell.

 

[mr_2_you]

alright, looks like i'll be playing the next turnset. there were a LOT of ideas tossed around in the past couple of posts with some dissenting opinion on various issues. here is my plan of attack (in no particular order):

1)finish off romans as soon as i can, avoid other conflicts if possible.
2)continue researching towards replaceable parts. this means keeping our current gov't and not researching communism.
3)switch build from leo's to military academy
4)minimize number of cities rioting due to war weariness

cross your fingers....