Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

I fail to understand this relentless pursuit of technology. I've taken a quick look at the save, and with a properly mm Empire + Zero Science we can pull in 500+gpt, enough to keep a steady supply of Cossacks rushed; and Cossacks are all we need.

Also, the WW is only causing a problem in corrupt, conquered cities; with good mm we need only run 20% lux.
 
preflight still 950 AD
after reading the discussion from the previous turnset, i'm going to try to wipe out a few more roman cities

before hitting return.

Ravenna falls easily, only one pike defending. it is razed.
veii falls, we lose one cossack. it is razed.
Antium falls to a single cossack, who is promoted to elite. city is razed.
i reposition some cossacks to take cologne from the romans, but they can't make it this turn.

hispalis and pompeii are easily raze-able next turn, but there are three other cities (muich, st. louis,
detroit) on the continent that i cannot get to easily. there are other cities on an island to the east that are out of the question until we get some ships over there. the ocean seems full of our galleons, i may have to

divert a few to the east side.

i turn my attention to productivity.....

the lux slider is currently at 30%. a quick manual count on the F1 screen tells me that *at least* 16 cities will riot next turn if i don't do something. i bump lux to 40% and it helps a little, but we'll still lose a lot of cities. i may have to switch some science weenies to clowns. i think i've got it under control (for this turn anyway). we will now get electricity in 8 instead of 7 due to the scientists we lost to maintain order. we

are at -79 gpt.

we either need to end this war quickly (which may be difficult to due with no ships in position to wipe out the

eastern islands) or switch governments. i considered switching to monarchy since communism isn't on our current

research path. ugh.

i check out our worker situation...

there several stacks of workers that aren't working on the rail line from the core to our invasion launching point (anjar). i wake them up so that i can move them next turn. most will take 3-4 turns to get into position.

there are no workers improving our core either. railroaded mines produce more shields, right?

i decide to cash-rush a couple cossacks in our core. we've got the cash to spare with 1075 gold left.
i hit return...

IBT - american settler/spear combo moves closer

960 AD - turn1
great library produces galleon => galleon
st. pete's cossack => cossack
iron town cossack => cossack
rostov cossack => cossack
yakustk cossack => cossack
fustat settler=> settler
brandeburg riots ... looks like i mised a city, sorry guys
hispalis' pike and spear fail them, the city is razed with no loss to us.
pompeii falls to our cossack army (taking no damage!); pompeii is razed.

all the roman cities on the southern part of the new coninent are gone. the are a few roman cities nestled up in the german territory and a couple more roman cities on islands. i will try to wipe them out as quickly as possible, but the logistics may prove to be a challenge. I begin moving our units from the southern portion of the new continent to either a launching point for the eastern roman island OR north to hit the roman in german lands.

i capture cologne and keep it so we can bounce settlers if the cruise by. hey, it even has a barracks! i have it start building a galleon (we need some on this side of the continent).
mason-disxon is building a wal...? i switch to cannon.
i upgrade a caravel to galleon.

several workers are retask to build rail lines.
four cossacks land on lutetia island. not sure if this is enough to take the city or not.... but i can make that decision next turn.

i reposition some galleons with the intent of shuttling forces to the eastern roman island.
switch production at gem town from settler to marketplace. it is pop 11 and needs the extra smilies.


966 gold in pocket, -98 gpt. electricity in 7

IBT
romans move two units near our cities.... i'm scared!


970 AD - turn2
tyrana cossack=>cossack
vologda settler=>settler
i redline two cossacks capturing lutetia. i keep the city as a staging ground for taking jerusalem. new york is now the roman capitol.

i discover our first barb re-settlement in the south of the new continent! those buggers are quick. i'm going to leave a few cossacks behind to guard the slaves moving northward, bu that's it' we can easily wipe out barbs

if they start approaching our cities to the north.

workers railrailrailroad a bunch.

i am in no position to attack any more roman cities this turn (or probably next turn either). most of our cossacks are en route to the north or waiting on galleons to invade the eastern islands.

893 gold in hand, -101 gpt. electricity in 6.

IBT
- roman troops move toward brandenburg which has no defender. may have to rush one there to avoid losing the city.

-americans settle memphis just south of stuttgart. it won't expand with our transportation until it expands, so

i leave it for now.

-hidden american galley drops off a pike/settler combo in the middle of the new continent. tricky abe... very tricky.

980 AD - turn3
lugdunum settler=>settler
riverton settler=> settler
nizhysdyfhsd novgorod worker=>settler

brandenburg will fall unless i rush a defender there. i rush a rifleman for 268 gold. ouch.
galleon arrives on new continent with 2 cossacks and 2 settlers.
railroads are starting to take shape.


i can turn the science slider down and still get electricity in 5 turns!!!! yay. the cash situation was

starting to worry me.

abe and bizmarkie don't have anything we want (as usual). cesar won't give us all his cities....

549 in treas, -56 gpt. electricity in 5.

IBT - americans really want to colonize the southern part of the continent! two teams of MI/settlers appear

near cologne. we cannot deny them passage as they do not have to travel through our territory (yet), so i will try to block the 'public' road and force them through our lands.


990 ad - turn4
yaroslv'l cossack=>cossack
yekaterinburg cosscack=>cossack
brandenburg finishes rifleman (reg, no barracks) start harbor
irkuskt settler=>settler
as a tribute to the former glory of rome, i put some romanesque pillars on the palace.
it looks like our cannons are going to be unused in attacking new york, it is surrounded by jungle, with it

mostly un-roaded. feh. i may be able to start moving troops to new york next turn.

493 in treas, -60 gpt, electricity in 4

IBT - bizmarkie complains about our forces in his lands, i offer to move them.
our brandenburg rifledude loses. we lose brandeburg. :/

1000 AD - turn5
hattusas harbor=>frigate (we have no naval offense)
we finish military academy! at 18 turns to build an army, i choose a rifledood instead. (we'll need defenders against the germans eventually)
medina riots => i give them a science dood
harran cosscack=>cossack
vladivostock cosscack=>cossack
arkhangel'sk settler=>settler
chelyabunsk galleon=>frigate

abe has moved his settler/MI groups into our lands. i tell him to remove his doods or declare war. he declares!

i dial up bizmarkie to see if he's up for a fight. biz won't go for it outright, so i get an alliance vs. the
romans and american and a ROP. he wants education. after some haggling, i also get 22gpt from him.

i attack the american settlers, we get a bunch of new american slaves. no losses
i attack memphis with a single cossack and win (one spear defender). i keep memphis.
a cossack takes out a single roman longbowman near stuttgart. no promotion.
i move some cossacks around dallas. it has dyes! we would like some dyes!
captured 2 american workers.
i send an expeditionary force (2 cossacks) into western germany to find a way to america. we've got enough

slaves to railroad a quick path to the american core and some roman satellite cities.

434 in treas, -45gpt, electricity in 3 (tried fiddling with the sci slider, no dice)


IBT - nada

1010 AD - turn6
st. p rifleman=>rifleman
krasnoyask cosscack=>cossack
yakustk cosscack=>cossack
alleppo rifleman=>cossack

i plant some memorial trees in front of the palace.
cossack army attacks dallas and captures the city. i keep the city, we now have dyes. i might even be able to turn down the lux slider...

i can finally move troops on new york (roman capitol), they can attack in 2 turns.
things are looking up. i load threee galleons full of cossacks to head for the eastern roman island cities.

i try taking the lux slider down to 20%.... wow. i'm amazed at the difference an additional luxury resource makes. thank you dye gods.

389 treas, +80 gpt, electricity in 2

IBT - german settler/longbow pair appears. i'm going to try to blockade them without violating our ROP.
romans land a galleyful of units next to cologne.

1020 AD - turn7
iron town cosscack=>cossack
smolensk frigate=>frigate
dallas no longer resists
anjer galleon=>frigate
saratov galleon=>galleon
americans finish art of war in philly..... muah ahahahahahahah

MI army takes out recent roman arrivals (from the galley) no loss on our part.
new york (roman capitol) shows a spear defending. turns out they have three spears defending, we raze the city with no loss to our forces.

i start looking around for new roman capitol and realize that jerusalem has been avoiding attack for sometime due to my own inattention. i move our cossacks closer to attack. a little exploring shows that there is a roman

city in the middle of the german area. it must be the capitol of at least size 4.

four cossacks lands near cincinatti.
new rostov is founded.
new yaroslav'l is founded.
11 cossacks unloaded near byzantium.

workers continue railroading

494 treas, +84 gpt. electrict next turn

IBT - forces in byzantium attack our cossacks and a great leader emerges!
german settler/bow pair moves towards newly razed area. it's a great spot with two cows and a river. i can't wait to raze the new city.

1030 AD - turn8
we have electricity, turn sci slider to 60% gets us replaceable parts in 10 turns
silk town riots, crap. give them sciencedood.
basra worker=>settler
riverton settler=>cannon
asharrakhan galleon=>frigate

germans building sistine chapel
boston is the new roman capitol with a whole ring of german cities around it.
i manage to get a cossack onto american iron. maybe i can pillage new turn.

workers railroad
new jack city founded.
cossacks attack new byzantium, one loss. city is autorazed so we still have leader floating around. might try

shipping him off to make an army.
jerusalem is captured, no losses.
cincincatti is razed, no losses.
i find rome's saltpeter and will try to pillage it next turn. (yes, they have musketmen)

move armies closer to roman cities on coast. start amassing forces in stuttgart for push into american core.

do some micromanaging.....

576 treas, +27gpt, rep parts 10 turns

IBT - observe some german/american fights

1040 AD - turn9
i am able to get our leader into a city on the last movement turn and cannot turn it into an army.... :/

moscow cosscack=>cossack
germans building knights templar

successfully pillage american iron
successfully pillage roman saltpeter

cossack army razes munich (roman)
cossack razes denver, one loss
caeseragusta is autorazed.

city of barbarian magnet founded


it appears the rail line from our core to the l;aunch point is complete. i have groups improving areas in the core and then some groups railroading out towards the former arabian area. i rush a cossack in celebration.


484 treas, +37 gpt, rep part 8turns

IBT - looks like our peace treaty is up with bizmarkie. no option to negotiate, it's either accept or declare war. we're really not in a position to fight three adversaries, so i accept.

1050 AD - turn10
new tarentum riots. crap, sorry guys. that's the 3 or 4th city this turnset.
german longbowman attack boston (roman) and kill 1 defender

tyrana cosscack=>cossack
yekaterinburg cosscack=>cossack
yakutsk cosscack=>cossack
augustodurum settler=>settler

18 cannon arrive in stuttgart in preparation for attacking american core

ivan the terrible is finally able to create an army. i can attack with elites again!

st louis(roman) is razed, no loss to our forces.
an attack on seleucia produces another great leader (peter the great). city is autorazed.
cossacks capture chicago, it has fur and we all know the ladies like fur. there are a bunch of workers in

chicago that i don't think i can move just yet.

there is a volcano erupting between baltimore and detroit (both roman) so the cossacks might just chill for a turn. they are fortified, so the next player will have to activate them on their next turn. workers continue to railroad all over the place, double check their progress and path to ensure that they follow your wishes. some ships will continue towards their final destination. finally, there are a bunch of settlers looking for a new place to build a city.

543 treas, +26 gpt, rep parts 7turns

ugh... my head aches. this was a loooong turnset, it took me about 4 hours to play. save to be attached in next post.
 
Some good stuff Mr 2. Taking out the Romans in the first turn was nice and the extra army and another ML is awefully nice.

I wonder why you extended the treaty with the Germans. They seem to be our big hurdle to controlling the continent. I know you wrote that you didin't feel we were ready but I disagree. Our cossacks could win a defensive war for a bit while we got more units into the frey.

When it comes to units, it seems we are pumping them out rather slowly. I looked at the save and could get +108 gpt with some MMing. With a 0% science and a lone scientist RP in 48 (but who really cares?) and +583 gpt. Now, 1000 gold rushes a lot of raxes and cossacks. We could literally have a completely new invasion force in 2 turns. So will artillery or gold win us the game faster?

Nonetheless, you did a lot of good work. Well done:D
 
When Phaedo suggested that we have lost our focus, he hit the nail squarely on the head.

If viewed purely on results, this SG has been an outstanding success; after all, the object was to win by conquest, and that will be achieved easily regardless of how focused we are.

However, I feel that the ease with which this game has been 'won' has actually been counter-productive. It has allowed complacency and mistakes to go unpunished. In this respect, as a training game it has been far less successful.

Phaedo has already demonstrated how much gpt is being wasted through poor mm'ing; to that can be added the fact that our city builds are largely haphazard.
For example, despite facing only galley's, five cities are building Frigates. Why?
We are entering the final phase of a conquest game; yet we continue to build Settlers in eleven cities. Why?
We have Galleons galore yet we are building eight more. Why?
We have little need for the Arty that we already have, yet we are building Cannon in six cities. Why?
I should add that these redundant units are being built in totally corrupt cities; the game will be over long before many are completed unless we waste gold rushing them.

The purpose of a training game as I understand it, is to improve one's gameplay; be assured, at higher levels than this, these errors will find you out. Anyone can learn to out-fight the AI, it's 'Generals' are as inept at Deity as they are at Warlord. What seperates the top players from the rest is the attention to detail - mm'ing the Empire efficiently, building efficiently, knowing when to plough gold in to research and when not to; and that is not being shown here.

This is not a critisism of any one player; as a team we have not been showing the attention to detail that is required. It is as Phaedo said - we have lost focus.
 
First, well played mr_2_you. Not bad at all for a regent level player :)

I agree with Buce that this game has been a slight mess ever since we managed to defeat the AI civs on our continent. It seems that we don't know what, where and when to build. The builds seem a bit random and some of them make no sense at all like Buce pointed out.

A few weeks ago I suggested that we'd stop research completely after we get astronomy and caravels since they were all we needed to win. Researching 2 more techs in order to get magnetism helped somewhat - it shortened the travel from Anjar to the Beachhead town for 1 turn (I think, 2 at most) and allowed us to transport the medieval infantry army across as well.

After magnetism we've researched banking (useless tech in this game), theory of gravity (useless), steam power (great tech but worth it?). Nationalism we got for free but it's useless in this game as well. Now we're going full speed towards electricity which is just as useless. I don't get it.

Just for kicks I played from 550AD to 710AD which is the year Phaedo started our golden age. In this SG we got caravels the next turn (720AD). In my game I had a stack of 15 caravels filled with 2 settlers, 19 cannons, 3 armies, 1 musket+1pike and 19 cossacks. 2 caravels filled with 1 elite AC, 2 elite swords and 3 more cossacks are 1 turn behind. Quite a bit more impressive invasion force than in our SG. I've stopped researching and make 790 gold per turn which can be used to rush more cossacks and caravels. I'll probably play it to the end and see how fast I can get a conquest victory.
 
Well played, Mr_2. I should have wiped out more of the Romans before I passed the save along. Thanks for taking care of them. And I, for one, did not mind the "super essay," as you called it.

I do question two decisions, though. The first: Why did you rush the rifleman at Brandenburg? Did you consider abandoning Brandenburg or giving it away? It would have cost us 2 gpt in unit support + whatever gold B-burg was generating through specialists, as opposed to a 268 gold payment, for a unit that was lost anyway + a contribution to our war weariness. Obviously, you could not have known beforehand that the rifleman would lose, but the rest was known or at least knowable. Please don't take this as a personal attack. It is certainly not intended as one. And I'm not saying that the decisions I've made were better. As Buce pointed out, I "missed the point entirely" when I unsuccessfully tried to defend Nuremberg with an army.

The second: Well, I guess it's more of a comment than a question. It's about the deal with the Germans. That will keep the Germans off our backs for a little while, but we've got the military strength to not worry about them too much. I think we'll probably have to break the deal before 20 turns expires. But IIRC, we're still waiting for Phaedo to weigh in on deal-breaking issues.

As to our focus and haphazard city builds . . . Everybody's been very kind about not criticizing any one player. But to be fair, I need to say something. Many of those haphazard city builds were mine. The walls at Mason-Dixon were begun by me at a time when there were still a fair number of Roman cities to the south (and maybe while the Romans still held Nuremberg, I don't recall). I never went back to change that build and I should have. At least two of the frigate builds that Mr_2 set in motion was coming off of frigate/galleon builds from my turnset. I suspect there were many builds that I should have changed.

Looking back at this game, I think I have tended to either (a) simply follow suit on what was built before; or (b) set builds too rashly, without enough calculation. I also think I tend to keep building as though war will go on forever and as though we'll need settlers to fill every vacant tile on the map. I think that's one of the reasons I started settlers in towns that will take 30 turns to build them. I need to think more about, among other things, unit support. I tend to plant towns everywhere for unit support and completely overload in terms of military. Unfortunately, I can't plant towns fast enough to keep up with military builds, so it has ended up costing us gpt. MMing and worker turns have been my weak point throughout this game. Perhaps I should have spent more time at Monarch before joining an Emperor game. Don't get me wrong, I think I've played decently. But I don't think I've played well. So maybe it hasn't been a total success as a TDG, but I can say that I've learned.
 
@phaedo - i signed the peace treaty with the germans the majority of our forces were still tied up either taking the roman island to the east of the new continent or moving northwards. i also knew that we were not going to finish off the romans (and later the americans) without passing through german territory. i figured once we wipe out the romans and the americans, the germans will be the only ones left so if our rep goes to crap for breaking a treaty, it's not a big deal to any other civ (they're all gone!).

regarding micromanaging - this is a skill that i really need to work on. i realize that the comments were not pointing at me (or my turnset) specifically so i'm not offended. i generally only checked cities when their population changed. is there a tutorial somewhere on this site for micromanaging help?

regarding builds - there were times when i had *no* idea what a good build would be. in previous games, i would continue to build defensive units in more corrupt cities knowing that they would eventually pop out. however a lot of our cities don't have barracks, so generally i just kept producing whatever was just produced (usually settlers). this seemed like a good course, doesn't it allow us to support more units? plus, we had all that open space on the new continent.

thank you everyone for your feedback. this was not meant to be a defensive post.
 
Why did you rush the rifleman at Brandenburg? Did you consider abandoning Brandenburg or giving it away? It would have cost us 2 gpt in unit support + whatever gold B-burg was generating through specialists, as opposed to a 268 gold payment, for a unit that was lost anyway + a contribution to our war weariness. Obviously, you could not have known beforehand that the rifleman would lose, but the rest was known or at least knowable.

i didn't consider giving the city away or abandoning it. giving away cities is not something i've done in the past so it didn't cross my mind. i gritted my teeth as i hit return to rush that defender. at that point in the game, we had a severe negative cash flow and dwindling reserves. this *forced* me to take a closer look at our lux and science sliders and by the end of my turnset we had a positive cashflow again.


Please don't take this as a personal attack. It is certainly not intended as one.

we're good. ;)


regarding research - i was under the impression we were going to get replaceable parts so that we could have arty and infantry. i know a few players mentioned cutting back research, but i was unaware of a majority decision. i did not continue researching to be obstinate.
 
i didn't consider giving the city away or abandoning it. giving away cities is not something i've done in the past so it didn't cross my mind. i gritted my teeth as i hit return to rush that defender.

If it's any help, I have the same reaction to both giving away cities and to trading tech. It's something that I've never done in other strategy games that I've played. I am accustomed to hoarding everything -- land, resources, techs, money . . . It probably only occurred to me because I'd had something similar occur with Bremen and because I'd just lost Nuremberg and Sal had made the comment that I should have abandoned it rather than losing it.

regarding research - i was under the impression we were going to get replaceable parts so that we could have arty and infantry. i know a few players mentioned cutting back research, but i was unaware of a majority decision. i did not continue researching to be obstinate.

I'm not sure a majority decision was ever reached. Buce and Sal both said cut back research. I don't recall an opinion from Phaedo. I don't recall what I said, but it was probably something to the effect of "shut down research after replaceable parts." (That sounds like me.)
 
As Buce pointed out, I "missed the point entirely"

Now I re-read that, it seems a little brusque; that was never my intention.
Every critisism that I have made throughout this thread was intended to be constructive, to help you learn from the mistakes that thousands of players - myself included - have made and learned from. I think you have done well in this game and, providing that you continue to learn, you have the potential to play at the highest level.
 
going by the schedule in the first post, either d'art or bucephalus is up.
 
I'm not sure why we'd be willing to give the best turns of the game to someone who has not been exactly a good team player... But, if Phaedo feels it's OK then I guess D'Art could play.

I played my "shadow-game" a bit more and managed to capture the southern Roman core area in 820AD, which in our game was D-day + 5 turns. Granted, I had the 3rd cossack army but I only used it against the Germans in the NW. I've lost 4 or 5 cossacks (I think) attacking the towns but no war weariness yet. I micromanaged 3 towns to 30 spt during the golden age (Moscow, Iron Town and St. Petes) for 3 turn cossacks. Or, 2 turn cossacks actually as I've part-rushed 30 shields for every cossack I've built in them.

Too tired to reply to the other comments right now but maybe later.

:eek: Are you sure? :lol:

First time for everything :eek: ;)
 
Argg! I just lost my post because I timed out while writing it!

First things first: I think Buce is up if he has time. Sorry but D'art just hasn't participated in the game enough to warrent real membership.
As fo the deal breaking issue. I did read the various opinions. My feeling is that deal breaking carries with it its own penalty. We could make it harder on ourselves and commit to honor all deals but I don't personally see the value in doing that in this game.

On the issue of the game itself; I think it has been an effective TDG. Personally I have learned tons. In fact, I thikn our aimlessness may have also brought out some important points. It highlights the fact that there is no set order of doing things in Civ 3. The same preparation for war on our continent is a time waster now and could actually help the AI get back into it. More funadmentally, it shows what happens when we don't have set goals.

I am certainly not an expert on MMing. I feel it is my overwhelming weak point of play. However if you are looking for something to help with those corrupt towns Mr_2, I suggest you look at Bede's article on settler farms in the War Academy. Take one of those old Arab towns. You are never going to get more than 1 shield production or 1 gpt right? It doesn't matter how many mines or river tiles the citizens work they will loose all that production and gold to corruption. A tax collector however gives 2 gold directly to our coffers and bypasses corruption. Food doesn't get corrupted. The idea is to max food production so that excess can be used for specialists (it also helps with the happiness in those towns:)). So if there is a size 6 town it should be down to 0 growth with as many specialists as possible (I would say taxmen in this situation). As for the builds, I find these hard myself. It would seem that wealth might actually be our best option for those towns at this point. Although if we had obscene amounts of gold, useful units could be rushed in corrupt towns.

Finally, I feel that same draw to keep setting down new towns in newly conqured land but here it just slows us down (because we need troops to defend them and workers to connect them etc.).
 
Looking back at this game, I think I have tended to either (a) simply follow suit on what was built before; or (b) set builds too rashly, without enough calculation.

It's important to think ahead. If you're steamrolling your enemy you don't need walls in your towns as by the time they're ready the frontline has already moved forward.

Perhaps I should have spent more time at Monarch before joining an Emperor game.

No no. The best way to learn is to play a game on a higher level than you feel comfortable with. We've learned a great many things in this game already:

1. don't use specialist in the beginning of the game unless you're sure they don't slow down the growth or the builds. Use the lux slider instead.

2. minimize the amount of wasted worker moves, especially in the beginning of the game. Always road the tiles before stepping onto the next one, unless there's some very good reason to move.

3. scouts don't lose extra movement points when crossing rivers

4. popping a hut when you have a settler out means that you can't get a settler from the hut

5. keep an eye on unit support costs while in republic. Building towns in a dense formation (CxxC) greatly helps in this regard. It can be really ugly until you get some luxes connected, get large enough cities (size 7 or more) and multiplier buildings built. Also, military police units are not needed in republic so disband those warriors.

6. wonders - build them only if they really do some good

7. workers are the most important unit in the game. At least 1 per town in the early game, preferably more. If you're working unimproved tiles you need more workers.

8. use workers wisely. Don't work hill, mountain, swamp or jungle tiles in the beginning unless you have a good reason to do so
 
Well, I finished my shadow-game which I started from the 550AD save and got a conquest victory in 920AD (as in, destroyed the last AI in 910AD and pressed enter).

One thing to keep in mind is that clearing out those islands can take longer than the mainland. There are quite a few towns in the two islands east of the AI continent so be sure to start clearing them out soon. Rush some galleons in the captured nearby coastal towns if you have to.
 
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