CE, SE, Hybrid... I'm so confused, Please Help!
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TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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cottages > merchants if you're using low slider to finance expansion. Merchants are only competitive at high research/culture/EP slider values.
I said AT LEAST one COMMERCE city, and sometimes it's true that it's all you need.
There are things that can take the place of cottages for commerce or gold, some strong (great lighthouse, colossus on some maps, sometimes a shrine on large maps with lots of easy autospread, etc), some poor (merchants, building wealth, etc). You'll notice that civ represents balance here - the options that are weaker in the absolute sense are more versatile (a hammer city building wealth can switch to units instantly, merchants ----> something else without much trouble) and don't require a select wonder or a commitment like working cottages to grow them. However, their potential output is lower.
Balancing these is important and the balance is going to change a LOT depending on your plans and the kind of map your civ is on.
well, i was actually thinking about a high beaker rate. a wide tech advantage is always a must when playing for domination, space colony and especially cultural (victories usually aimed by civ players).
anyways, i always go for 2 production cities, 2 specialist cities, the rest cottage cities. if you're game would still have go all the way to biology, then you will have another specialist city, thanks to national park
anyways, i always go for 2 production cities, 2 specialist cities, the rest cottage cities. if you're game would still have go all the way to biology, then you will have another specialist city, thanks to national park
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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Always, you say
?http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=332762
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=327047
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=328869
Well, at least with space it's easier to get a tech lead at some point
.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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If you're the only civ left on the planet, you are #1 in tech after all.
TheMeInTeam
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It's semantics though. All you have to do to get dom is leave the last guy a crappy tundra city somewhere and settle everything, or just not burn cities in the first place.
You can out-tech that 1 city tundra nonsense fairly rapidly, too.
None of this is relevant to the issue at hand though, which is what "economy" to run, or rather that the OP should be adjusting city usage based on land available. My initial point stands - if it takes financial to win on noble "fairly consistently", the issue here isn't "economy", it's tile micro for city specialization, tech choices, and choosing the correct buildings or units in cities.
Leaning heavily on specs means understanding GPP and its usage or developing a pyramids crutch. The former is useful for a noble player to review, but as far as I can tell only starts becoming MANDATORY on deity.
I emphasize again ----> specifically targeting a SE (and bothering to define it) isn't going to help newish players, it DISTRACTS them from the real issues in their play. One can do nothing but build horse archers and will easily dominate their continent on noble, even if that continent is pangaea. Nobody asks about the "horse archer economy", but that's no more ridiculous than asking how to run SE.
fine fine. so for the newbie who needs help, you look on your map and analyze your situation with the AIs, the economy you will be running depend on these two factors
generally, the CE is for the long term. The SE and the hybrid are utilized for you to keep up with the AIs tech pace early on; if you are just expanding and you only have yet to be developed cities; and if you are at war.
running on SE is also needed if you are still waiting for the cottages to develop - meaning, the city doesn't use mines, just the farms and the cottages (gold/gem may be an exception). once the cottages are fine, release the specialists and let your city grow
SE --> hybrid --> CE
i still don't suggest having more than two production cities - hammer cities grow slow, only a few buildings are actually necessary (additional buildings changes depend on victory aim) and a huge collection of troops will kill your economy
running on SE forever is not advisable as you will be seriously hampering city growth especially if there are some happiness still left.
and yeah, learning to use workers properly comes first
generally, the CE is for the long term. The SE and the hybrid are utilized for you to keep up with the AIs tech pace early on; if you are just expanding and you only have yet to be developed cities; and if you are at war.
running on SE is also needed if you are still waiting for the cottages to develop - meaning, the city doesn't use mines, just the farms and the cottages (gold/gem may be an exception). once the cottages are fine, release the specialists and let your city grow
SE --> hybrid --> CE
i still don't suggest having more than two production cities - hammer cities grow slow, only a few buildings are actually necessary (additional buildings changes depend on victory aim) and a huge collection of troops will kill your economy
running on SE forever is not advisable as you will be seriously hampering city growth especially if there are some happiness still left.
and yeah, learning to use workers properly comes first
Dirk1302
Deity
A good economy has:
All tiles improved and 80% preferably more of the tiles worked by 1000 AD
Oxford by ~1000 AD
Basic infra in all cities , Forges,Universities and Markets in all commerce cities
Forges in production cities probably also military buildings
Courthouses in far away cities
Parthenon and GL if marble is existent, GLH is great if you can get that too. If you have stone a try for Mids may be worth it. MoM is difficult but also very attractive if you have marble.
To get there:
Look at the map, is it better to farm or cottage certain tiles?
Have roughly 1.5 worker/city, more if there's lots of jungle to be cleared
Production cities should just grow to cap and work mines, tiles should be farmed around them to maximize the amount of mines/workshops being worked
Other cities should have +6 or more food so infra can be whipped in
Trade aggressively but not for small techs, emphasize getting to currency/CS and don't be afraid to trade techs and resources for cash
Start cottages near the capital early and work them asap, build some nearby cities to work some cottages the capital can use later.
This is a general concept and not all maps work out this way but it's often right for games that start peaceful. Imo i have described much more clearly how i'd run an economy than when i'd just mashed some terms together.
All tiles improved and 80% preferably more of the tiles worked by 1000 AD
Oxford by ~1000 AD
Basic infra in all cities , Forges,Universities and Markets in all commerce cities
Forges in production cities probably also military buildings
Courthouses in far away cities
Parthenon and GL if marble is existent, GLH is great if you can get that too. If you have stone a try for Mids may be worth it. MoM is difficult but also very attractive if you have marble.
To get there:
Look at the map, is it better to farm or cottage certain tiles?
Have roughly 1.5 worker/city, more if there's lots of jungle to be cleared
Production cities should just grow to cap and work mines, tiles should be farmed around them to maximize the amount of mines/workshops being worked
Other cities should have +6 or more food so infra can be whipped in
Trade aggressively but not for small techs, emphasize getting to currency/CS and don't be afraid to trade techs and resources for cash
Start cottages near the capital early and work them asap, build some nearby cities to work some cottages the capital can use later.
This is a general concept and not all maps work out this way but it's often right for games that start peaceful. Imo i have described much more clearly how i'd run an economy than when i'd just mashed some terms together.
yanner39
Emperor
This is my biggest problem. I have no issues with commerce cities. I get floodplains and grasslands, I cottage them. The problem is I end up with a problem with a disproportionate amount of commerce cities vs production cities. There are times when the map doesn't give me hills to mine.
In my current game, I removed all the jungles and I have a lot of green tiles. I cottaged them all. I can't say I have one true production city apart from my capital. So would it be a bad idea to take one of my commerce cities with all the green tiles, and build workshops? I do have one city with a couple of green hills which are mined. Say I build workshops around and convert this commerce city to a production city?
Dirk1302
Deity
You can do a couple of things according to your needs,
1. Farm them and stay in slavery, these cities'll have production like no tomorrow, great for renaissance wars
2. Cottage them anyway, tech to demo and run US for production, try to build Kremlin great for industrial wars
3. Shop them 2 food, 4H with all the modifiers, great for wars somewhere in between 1 and 2.
Frankly i'd be happy to have all green tiles, i end up with quite a lot of brown tiles usually. I tend to shop them, don't work them before guilds. If you must work them build farms on them. Capital is an exception i tend to cottage brown tiles there.
1. Farm them and stay in slavery, these cities'll have production like no tomorrow, great for renaissance wars
2. Cottage them anyway, tech to demo and run US for production, try to build Kremlin great for industrial wars
3. Shop them 2 food, 4H with all the modifiers, great for wars somewhere in between 1 and 2.
Frankly i'd be happy to have all green tiles, i end up with quite a lot of brown tiles usually. I tend to shop them, don't work them before guilds. If you must work them build farms on them. Capital is an exception i tend to cottage brown tiles there.
What Dirk said:
and having green tiles is just good since rushing universities is quite important. The faster Oxford you get the better you take off.
I generally prefer farms over cottages for being more flexible. Capital is usually a cottage deal but over-cottaging the rest and not being able to get infrastructure exactly falls into: "Other cities should have +6 or more food so infra can be whipped in".
and having green tiles is just good since rushing universities is quite important. The faster Oxford you get the better you take off.
I generally prefer farms over cottages for being more flexible. Capital is usually a cottage deal but over-cottaging the rest and not being able to get infrastructure exactly falls into: "Other cities should have +6 or more food so infra can be whipped in".
Dirk1302
Deity
^I lean towards farms in other cities than capital myself too nowadays for flexibility. I found out that often my pre 1000 AD research didn't come from those cottages/hamlets or even villages anyway but from the capital and traderoutes.
But there are some exceptions,
I always cottage fp's
There are those tiles that can't get a farm before CS, if the city can work this tile and i don't have more important worker jobs to do i'll cottage. After CS i determine if i change it back to a farm.
Financial i lean more towards cottages as they get a nice boost after 10 turns or even directly on a river.
But there are some exceptions,
I always cottage fp's
There are those tiles that can't get a farm before CS, if the city can work this tile and i don't have more important worker jobs to do i'll cottage. After CS i determine if i change it back to a farm.
Financial i lean more towards cottages as they get a nice boost after 10 turns or even directly on a river.
Why have such a policy? Cottages don't mature faster on flood plains, it's the same improvement as on other tiles. I see this statement often and I don't understand it.
It's better to farm the fp to grow faster and then cottage the grassland than cottaging the fp and farming the grassland. You work more tiles sooner.
The statement stems from the fact that working a grass cottage is +-0 food, while each incremental worked FP cottage makes the city grow faster while getting commerce. Often working a few FP cottages is all the growing power you need. Working more tiles sooner isn't necessarily an absolute value by itself if it yields less benefits. Farm-first-cottage-later on FPs also takes more worker turns than on grass.
I don't claim it's necessarily better, even though I almost always do that, but this is why
Dirk1302
Deity
I never thought really deep about it too but,
Farming loads of fp's usually gets you through the healthcap, just too much food. Also what Silu said, cottaging grass easily leaves the city with not enough food, no such risk with FP's.
If you also have grasslands you can of course farm the fp's cottage the grasslands, building a farm on an fp takes 7 turns though so you must have enough worker power.
Especially near the capital early cottaged fp's grow to villages, even towns fast while still helping with food, especially here in the early game the 7 farming turns hurt and touching the grasslands before the fp's isn't an option then.
Farming loads of fp's usually gets you through the healthcap, just too much food. Also what Silu said, cottaging grass easily leaves the city with not enough food, no such risk with FP's.
If you also have grasslands you can of course farm the fp's cottage the grasslands, building a farm on an fp takes 7 turns though so you must have enough worker power.
Especially near the capital early cottaged fp's grow to villages, even towns fast while still helping with food, especially here in the early game the 7 farming turns hurt and touching the grasslands before the fp's isn't an option then.
TheMeInTeam
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Cottaging a LOT (aka vast majority) of cities can be very powerful but only in SOME situations. Probably the most typical are those starts where you just rushed away your only neighbor and have room for 15+ cities. A production city or so is useful, but with that kind of land research will go CRAZY later. I've had extreme situations (war to clear continent) where I didn't have education by 1400 AD, only to have access to tanks and fighters by the early 1700's. Of course there were some trades involved there but it's still a strong fixed beaker rate.
The problem for me is getting the land to win, or rather I struggle to adjust for it in sub-ideal situations 100% of the time.
The problem for me is getting the land to win, or rather I struggle to adjust for it in sub-ideal situations 100% of the time.
r_rolo1
King of myself
@ dirk and Rusten
My thumb rule on that would be "farm enough FP to get fast to
cap ( or cap + 1, depending of the hap cap being even or odd ), whip infrastucture and regrow, cottage the rest" ( If , OFC, I have plans for cottages in that city. FP cities are also very good for piling specialists in case you don't have any better spot ). I think that is a aceptable compromise between farming all and cottaging all.
EDIT:
My thumb rule on that would be "farm enough FP to get fast to
cap ( or cap + 1, depending of the hap cap being even or odd ), whip infrastucture and regrow, cottage the rest" ( If , OFC, I have plans for cottages in that city. FP cities are also very good for piling specialists in case you don't have any better spot ). I think that is a aceptable compromise between farming all and cottaging all.EDIT:
My critic to the "E"s talk is a bit diferent. The crude reality is that there isn't a clear definition of any of those "economies" and most of the times people lose more time discussing the definitions than anything else... I've seen people calling CE to a 8 city beauro empire with 7 cities cottaged and the cap running heavy merchants and others calling a economy a hybrid just because one city was running cottages.... the point is that, if there isn't a definition, we can't discuss more than the definition. And IMHO, that is where the discussion is standing from the last 3 years until now.
