CE vs SE Head-to-Head Experiment!

[Wodan]

So it's obviously a given to me that i'll have more religions (one more!) if i go for specialists than if I go for cottages.

It's really another way of playing, not just another way of researching.

Well you said you had a couple of questions but didn't ask any.

I suppose you're wondering whether this is okay for the test. Well, obviously it's a perfectly good strategy, and an interesting way to get Writing. Good explanation by the way.

The question is whether it'll wreck the test. Personally I'd say yes. However, all you have to do is have your CE follow the same path. Go for Priesthood first. Shouldn't a huge problem.

What sort of time scale are you looking at for this test? I had expected to have time around now, but it appears I shall not be able to start my game until the 9th Oct. After this however I will have loads of time (read 24 hours/ day). If this is too late take me off the list of people who will run the test.

Doesn't bother me any... don't know what others will say.

Frankly I was thinking I might actually do a couple of them myself, to give more data points. Maybe one as Roosevelt, maybe one on higher level.

Wodan

 

[Landmonitor]

This sounds interesting. I've had a couple of very successful games with a SE, but they were only at Prince (I'm about to make my first leap to Monarch sometime next month - gaming time is extremely limited) and involved having a quarry nearby to get pyramids, so they don't really count.

Anyway, I'll be lurking and look forward to seeing how this pans out.

 

[Shillen]

I'm in the middle of a move myself and GOTM stuff takes precedence over this so I don't know when I'll get around to it.

I did start a game last week but found myself on a continent with very little means to irrigate and deemed it an unworthy map for the comparison. One thing I did pull from that though is that it's very difficult for me to remember when 20 turns have gone by so I can save and record data points. Is there a way to tell what turn number you're on from in game or can someone list all the dates that saves are needed? I know I can see the turn number with the HoF mod but I assume we're not using mods for this.

 

[Wodan]

I'm in the middle of a move myself and GOTM stuff takes precedence over this so I don't know when I'll get around to it.

I did start a game last week but found myself on a continent with very little means to irrigate and deemed it an unworthy map for the comparison. One thing I did pull from that though is that it's very difficult for me to remember when 20 turns have gone by so I can save and record data points. Is there a way to tell what turn number you're on from in game or can someone list all the dates that saves are needed? I know I can see the turn number with the HoF mod but I assume we're not using mods for this.

Umm, here's up to 1000 AD or so.

Also, I've forgotten several times... look in your Auto saves folder... it saves every 5 turns up to 4 saves so as long as you remember before 20 more turns have gone by, you can copy the save out of there.

Wodan

 

[MrCynical]

One thing I did pull from that though is that it's very difficult for me to remember when 20 turns have gone by so I can save and record data points. Is there a way to tell what turn number you're on from in game or can someone list all the dates that saves are needed?

At normal speed the saves should be at:

4000BC
3200BC
2400BC
1600BC
875BC
375BC
125AD
600AD
1000AD
1200AD
1400AD
1550AD
1650AD
1750AD
1820AD
1860AD
1900AD
1930AD
1950AD
1970AD
1990AD
2010AD
2030AD
2050AD

 

[MrCynical]

OK, I've completed my first test game. I won't claim I've played either economy perfectly, but I think the data should still be of some use.

There is however a slight technical hitch. The forum doesn't permit zip files as attachments that are larger than 300KB. Unfortunately, even zipped the file, due to all the save games, is over 6 megs. Anyone have any suggestions? I suppose I could unzip it again and post all the bits individually, but it's going to be rather messy. I could put up just the game logs and excel file for a starting point, and if anyone wants a specific save I could post that particular one.

 

[Phrederick]

Anyone have any suggestions?

http://rapidshare.de/
http://www.mytempdir.com/
http://www.badongo.com/

I found these while searching for "free uploads," the only one that I've used is rapidshare, but it seems to work just fine.

 

[Wodan]

Great... you beat me to it, MrCynical. I'm about 1500AD in my game. Halfway through or so.

I would say the first step is to upload the logs, excel file, plus the 4000BC save. The other saves might be "upon request". What does everyone else think?

I don't have any philosophical objection to using a free upload site as Phrederick suggests, though I haven't used those ones he lists. Most people probably also have the capability to post a file on their internet provider. Or, each of us could create a free account on yahoo, gmail, or hotmail... I think you get free web space with them, which of course can be used to post files. That, however, is starting to get into the realm of being a lot of hassle.

Sandy

 

[MrCynical]

Well, here's the game logs and starting save. I'll have a look at free uploads, but this should be something to start with.

View attachment MrCynical CE vs SE Comparison (game logs).zip

 

[Beamup]

Fascinating. I won't say any more than that until Wodan posts his results, but these are definitely fascinating.

 

[CivScientist]

Well, here's the game logs and starting save. I'll have a look at free uploads, but this should be something to start with.

View attachment 139508

So....looking at MrCynical's log, what metrics should we be concentrating on to compare the two economies? GNP looks decent but that includes all commerce minus all your costs. It also doesn't account for the effect of buildings such as libraries on your commerce. I found this information here. We can simply add back in the city, civic, and various unit costs to GNP but there still is the issue of how buildings affect your commerce.

Any other ideas of how to use the existing metrics to properly compare the SE versus the CE?

I should add that, after looking at MrCynical log file it seems the specialist and cottage economies are neck and neck up until around 1400 AD when the cottage economy starts to take off. I compared them using the modified GNP metric I described above. I took the GNP and added back the total expenses.

 

[malekithe]

Any other ideas of how to use the existing metrics to properly compare the SE versus the CE?

I'd use Research + Gold - (Total Expenses - Inflation) on the commerce side. You don't want to simply ignore expenses, as bigger cities have additional costs that need to be accounted for. Hammers are fairly straightforward; just add total hammers to whipped hammers. This does, unfortunately, ignore the bonuses given by forges, etc. But, it is a safer assumption that these would be more or less equivalent between the two games. I wouldn't be willing to make the same assumption regarding commerce-related buildings.

Then, if you wanted one comprehensive metric, I'd just multiply the hammer count by 2 and add the two numbers together. That should result in a decent index for gauging total economic strength.

That doesn't account for Great People lightbulbing techs in any direct way, though. In theory, a timely lightbulb, would speed up your economy as a whole, giving indirect evidence of its effect, but that's not a given.

 

[CivScientist]

I'd use Research + Gold - (Total Expenses - Inflation) on the commerce side...

What is the gold metric? I thought it was the amount of gold savings at first. On second though, maybe it's your total income before expenses?

 

[UncleJJ]

You can compare the SE and CE to each other in 2 ways

a) in terms of the output per turn at each stage of the game as malekithe suggests... That would be beakers, gold (minus costs) and hammers per turn. It is harder to account for hammers from slavery since these occur at irregular intervals, but I guess an average value can be derived. Malekithe's suggestion for a comprehesive metric also seems very useful and 1 hammers = 2 beaker = 2 gold is just what I would suggest as well.

b) in terms of what assets they have accumulated . That would be the amount of beakers in all the technologies researched plus the amount of gold saved. The size of the army as measured in hammers. Maybe the total hammer value of buildings and wonders could be compared as well. It is not easy to produce a comprehensive metric for the assets but each category (research + gold, army and buildings) can be compared with itself. A careful record of technology trading with the AI is needed to prevent distorting the research comparison.

 

[Wodan]

Very good thoughts, all.

I'd also say we need to look at GP directly, both in relation to and independently from other metrics.

Depending on strategy, the player might use GP to boost infrastructure. GS settling, GE speeding a wonder, etc. This should for the most part be reflected in the other metrics, but not always. It's difficult to measure the impact of some wonders.

To contrast, the player might use GP to slingshot advanced techs, which can then be used to successfully promulgate a war of conquest, or to trade to AIs for many other techs. Either of these things are extremely difficult to measure and compare.

In any event, I think there should be some sort of gauge, in two ways: GP used to settle (etc) and GP used to lightbulb (etc). Not quite sure how to do this so I'll just toss the idea out to see what others think.

Wodan

 

[Qwack]

Here is the things I have started recording in my game...

1. Net Beakers per turn
2. Net Economic Output (Net BeakersPerTurn + Net GoldPerTurn)
3. Soldiers (This will give a better idea of production since it takes into account slavery)
4. Score (Primarily for wonders and city sizes, once again a better idea of production)
5. Land area

I wanted to take into account the current gold reserve also, but cant figur eout a good way to record that. This is basically to take into account the city pillage money and Great merchant trade routes.

 

[drkodos]

Pillaging is much more damaging to a Cottage Economy than it is to the Specialist economy.

This can be exploited in both multiplayer and single player games.

 

[Samson]

I have just started, and I notice we are supposed to record whipped hammers and GP generated (from log). Where is this log?

 

[Wodan]

I have just started, and I notice we are supposed to record whipped hammers and GP generated (from log). Where is this log?

There's a column in the Excel spreadsheet. If that doesn't work for you, then a simple text file will do.

Wodan

 

[Samson]

There's a column in the Excel spreadsheet. If that doesn't work for you, then a simple text file will do.

Wodan

I mean where do I find the log from which I get the data to fill in this column?