CE vs SE Head-to-Head Experiment!

[Wodan]

I mean where do I find the log from which I get the data to fill in this column?

Well, I play in windows mode, so I simply switch over and add in the numbers when I whip. If that doesn't work for you, maybe a pad of paper.

In addition, GPs are noted in the game log. Look in the upper left of the screen, there's a little scroll icon, I think.

Wodan

 

[Beamup]

So how are your games coming along, Wodan? Another data point would be very interesting.

 

[Wodan]

They're coming. I did a SE with a production capitol (no water and not enough food for cottages) and a GS settled GP farm, and rode that down in flames into the modern era. Quite simply could not keep up with Mansa. But it should be a good data point. ;-)

I still have to finish the CE but it's coming along. It, too, isn't faring that well against Mansa. Partly I think my starting location simply is inferior, but that's ok. How my games compare to each other is what matters, not how they compare to Mansa.

Also, I decided to do a more "normal" SE which will require me to put the capitol somewhere else. I just started that game and am cottaging the capitol as well as using GPs to lightbulb. I'll provide this as a separate data point.

I'm not sure if I'll take the time to have a 4th game which is a SE->CE midgame switch. Since I'm doing this other game I may skip that for now. It could always be done later.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Okay I'm going on a tip next week and won't be able to play.

I finished my CE. Pretty leisurely space victory. It should be a pretty good comparison.

I'm not done with the SE but I'll post what I have so far. Unfortunately, it didn't quite parallel the CE. I wasn't in as good of a position to attack Peter, so I went after Mansa (who was being a pain anyway and was higher score), Peter being my religion so that was a good choice.

I'll finish the SE when I get back. Also, I may go ahead and take the SE from 1300AD or so, and do a SE->CE switch as a 3rd game.

Also, I had intended to type up some game notes. It should be pretty clear what I was doing from the log, but still. I'll see if I can do that next week from memory (I'll have computer access, so you're not quite rid of me).

Wodan

 

[DaveMcW]

Would you mind posting your starting save?

 

[Wodan]

Would you mind posting your starting save?

not at all.

 

[Murky]

Okay I'm going on a tip next week and won't be able to play.

I finished my CE. Pretty leisurely space victory. It should be a pretty good comparison.

I'm not done with the SE but I'll post what I have so far. Unfortunately, it didn't quite parallel the CE. I wasn't in as good of a position to attack Peter, so I went after Mansa (who was being a pain anyway and was higher score), Peter being my religion so that was a good choice.

I'll finish the SE when I get back. Also, I may go ahead and take the SE from 1300AD or so, and do a SE->CE switch as a 3rd game.

Also, I had intended to type up some game notes. It should be pretty clear what I was doing from the log, but still. I'll see if I can do that next week from memory (I'll have computer access, so you're not quite rid of me).

Wodan

I think a better comparison would be a Philosophical leader who goes for Pyramids/GL SE vs. a Financial CE.

 

[Wodan]

I think a better comparison would be a Philosophical leader who goes for Pyramids/GL SE vs. a Financial CE.

We discussed all that. Perhaps you should read the previous 5 screens, plus the forefather thread, accessible here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185639
Good luck with that one. Not for the faint of heart.

Anyway, bottom line, we decided that for several reasons, a good comparison would be non-Pyramids SE vs non-Financial CE.

Once we have data to establish some sort of comparison between those two, then we'll have a baseline to draw conclusions for the other permutations:
non-Pyramids SE vs Financial CE
Pyramids SE vs non-Financial CE
Pyramids SE vs Financial CE

Wodan

 

[Murky]

We discussed all that. Perhaps you should read the previous 5 screens, plus the forefather thread, accessible here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185639
Good luck with that one. Not for the faint of heart.

Anyway, bottom line, we decided that for several reasons, a good comparison would be non-Pyramids SE vs non-Financial CE.

Once we have data to establish some sort of comparison between those two, then we'll have a baseline to draw conclusions for the other permutations:
non-Pyramids SE vs Financial CE
Pyramids SE vs non-Financial CE
Pyramids SE vs Financial CE

Wodan

I understand that and respect their opinions. I'm just voicing my opinion that a SE without Pyramids is unlikely. Who would go to all that extra hassle without the benefit of early Representation? Stacking up the best case scenario for SE vs. the best for CE just makes more sense to me.

 

[Wodan]

I understand that and respect their opinions. I'm just voicing my opinion that a SE without Pyramids is unlikely. Who would go to all that extra hassle without the benefit of early Representation? Stacking up the best case scenario for SE vs. the best for CE just makes more sense to me.

And what do you do if you try to get Pyramids but get beat? Do you abandon the SE and cottage all your farms? That will surely put you behind because you've already lost all those turns of cottage maturation. Or, should you continue and will you be okay with a SE... that's the question it would be nice to have an answer to, don't you think?

Regardless, it's not all that difficult to beeline (especially via slingshot using the GP you're harvesting) to Constitution.

In addition, how do you suggest to respond to the nay-sayers who say, "Yeah, with Pyramids. On high level that's impossible to get."

If a comparison can be made that the non-Pyramids case is competitive, then wouldn't it be useful to be able to view the situation such that the Pyramids make a SE even better, and thus well worth the effort?

As for non-Financial, a similar approach is there. But, slightly different. Financial is not available to all leaders. However, we arrive at the interesting question of whether a SE is a good option even for a Financial leader.

In any event, I myself see this as the first step. Once we accomplish some testing with this as baseline, I for one fully intend to extend the test to other permutations.

You are welcome to begin right now and do your "best case scenario" comparison. I see no harm in having those permutations compared right away. You're entitled to your own opinion, of course... but we can also challenge you (and others) to exercise that opinion rather than simply disagree with & tear down the approach of those who are putting out considerable effort. consider it a challenge! We'd love to have more people join in. So far, there are 4 I think.

Also, a side note... I'm finding a LOT about my own "habits" of gameplaying and my preconceived notions, simply by playing a game side-by-side with two different strategies. Same map, same leader, same AI opponents. You might be surprised how much fun it is.

Wodan

 

[Murky]

And what do you do if you try to get Pyramids but get beat? Do you abandon the SE and cottage all your farms? That will surely put you behind because you've already lost all those turns of cottage maturation. Or, should you continue and will you be okay with a SE... that's the question it would be nice to have an answer to, don't you think?

Regardless, it's not all that difficult to beeline (especially via slingshot using the GP you're harvesting) to Constitution.

In addition, how do you suggest to respond to the nay-sayers who say, "Yeah, with Pyramids. On high level that's impossible to get."

If a comparison can be made that the non-Pyramids case is competitive, then wouldn't it be useful to be able to view the situation such that the Pyramids make a SE even better, and thus well worth the effort?

As for non-Financial, a similar approach is there. But, slightly different. Financial is not available to all leaders. However, we arrive at the interesting question of whether a SE is a good option even for a Financial leader.

In any event, I myself see this as the first step. Once we accomplish some testing with this as baseline, I for one fully intend to extend the test to other permutations.

You are welcome to begin right now and do your "best case scenario" comparison. I see no harm in having those permutations compared right away. You're entitled to your own opinion, of course... but we can also challenge you (and others) to exercise that opinion rather than simply disagree with & tear down the approach of those who are putting out considerable effort. consider it a challenge! We'd love to have more people join in. So far, there are 4 I think.

Also, a side note... I'm finding a LOT about my own "habits" of gameplaying and my preconceived notions, simply by playing a game side-by-side with two different strategies. Same map, same leader, same AI opponents. You might be surprised how much fun it is.

Wodan

Everygame is situational with Civ IV. Some games should work better for a SE than a CE and vice versa. If I was able to either build or capture the Pyramids early in the game and I playing a non-financial civ, then a SE might be the best direction to go. If I'm financial and have no shot at the Pyramids then the best bet would be to build lots of cottages and have one gp farm.

I do value the effort you and others are making to this study. Maybe I will try some games for comparison. I'm just not sure if you can/should determine at the start of the game to go SE or CE because each game is different.

 

[Wodan]

I think you have to decide pretty darn early whether you're going for Pyramids or not or else you're guaranteed not to get it.

I do agree that it's necessary to scout around before choosing. Some terrains are more conducive for SE and some for CE, some for either.

Personally I usually "kick start" my cities with a farm or two, to grow population and allow whippping, even when running a CE. So, to me the choice isn't done right "at the start of the game" but some time thereafter.

YMMV

Wodan

 

[Murky]

I think you have to decide pretty darn early whether you're going for Pyramids or not or else you're guaranteed not to get it.

I think you have to do an analysis of your leader traits, terrain, available resources and difficulty to determine what chance you have at building the Pyramids. If you can't build them before someone else does, then you should try to capture them.

I do agree that it's necessary to scout around before choosing. Some terrains are more conducive for SE and some for CE, some for either.

I'd guess you should be able to decide by the time you build the 2nd city.

Personally I usually "kick start" my cities with a farm or two, to grow population and allow whippping, even when running a CE. So, to me the choice isn't done right "at the start of the game" but some time thereafter.

YMMV

Wodan

I tend to go for working food resources first, then build mines, then try to go for more military units, cottage spam and/or libraries.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

I was curious about the result of the little experiment done here. Did it finish? What have we, and by we I mean others through your hardwork, what have we learned?

 

[futurehermit]

I figure I might have something to say about this thread and you can take it or leave it.

I've played many games with both economies and prefer a SE since I feel it is significantly stronger.

HOWEVER

I feel that if you ARE NOT philosophical OR you do not build the pyramids THEN the CE is better, ESPECIALLY if you are financial. This is because without representation a scientist is only worth 3 beakers yet takes two pop to run (1 for farm, 1 for specialist). That means once a pair of cottages grow to size 2, they are putting out more beakers at 100% science.

However, with philosophical you're getting more scientists, which you can turn into a lotta beakers via lightbulbing and with representation we're talking 6 beakers which is a lot better than cottages early on.

So, basically, imo a philosophical civ should always go SE, especially if they can nab the pyramids and a financial civ should always go CE (with Liz going hybrid).

BTW, I agree with acidsatyr (who plays a lot of SE at very high skill levels) that the settings for this test will make results very hard to analyze. I'd rather see pure CE vs pure SE AND I would rather see it with financial vs. phil w/pyramids.

Why? Because I really believe that a CE is going to be superior with a neutral leader. I'm open to being convinced otherwise as a result of this thread, but I doubt I am wrong here. And, I'm not just talking about game-long effects, I'm talking about during that critical period up to liberalism.

With a SE I'm regularly able to get liberalism all while engaging in a lot of war and expanding my empire beyond what I am able to sustain with a CE (since cottages take long to mature and a SE city only requires a couple farms and a library to set up).

Plus, you should not use caste system in a SE. Why? Because one of the HUGEST, HUGEST, HUGEST advantages of a SE is very high food-output meaning extensive whipping. One of the downfalls of the CE imo is that it is low food meaning longer regrowth after whipping and thus you have cottages that are not being worked!!!

Anyways, there's fanboys on both sides that won't be convinced either way, and like I said you can take my comments or leave them, but after many many games with both economies I can say that I really find SE to be superior to CE with phil and/or pyramids with CE being superior with other leaders.

A hybrid economy imo is superior to both!!! So, I always try and get pyramids if I see stone or if I'm industrious and when I've got a nice grasslands river, I prefer to slap down cottages.

Imo SE has amazing synergy with conquest/domination victories, especially since pyramids also opens up police state!!!

 

[Wodan]

I was curious about the result of the little experiment done here. Did it finish? What have we, and by we I mean others through your hardwork, what have we learned?

RL crept in for me, plus I lost some of the don quixote interest. I'll probably pick it up again here sometime when I have more brainpower not eaten up by RL. For right now, Civ to me is purely "turn the brain off" time. Others are free to continue the data gathering and analysis, of course. Just because I started this doesn't mean it has to be driven by me.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

I feel that if you ARE NOT philosophical OR you do not build the pyramids THEN the CE is better, ESPECIALLY if you are financial.

That's your conclusion; okay, reading on now...

This is because without representation a scientist is only worth 3 beakers yet takes two pop to run (1 for farm, 1 for specialist). That means once a pair of cottages grow to size 2, they are putting out more beakers at 100% science.

That's your supporting evidence, got it.

Well, let's take a hypothetical. Say a great scientist granted 1,000,000 beakers when lightbulbing (instead of 1500-2000). They don't, but let's just suppose.

If they did, then this would totally eclipse the potential 7 or so from a fully developed Town.

So, the supporting evidence does not seem to be sufficient to lead us to the conclusion. Agreed?

However, with philosophical you're getting more scientists, which you can turn into a lotta beakers via lightbulbing and with representation we're talking 6 beakers which is a lot better than cottages early on.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Philosophical benefits a SE. However, there's a cost for Philosophical (you have to give up one of your 2 Traits), so it's not as much a slam dunk, not to me anyway. Is it really worth giving up Charismatic, or Industrious, in order to get the Philo? Very hard to answer that question.

Also, that Representation makes a SE much better. I think this is a clearer case, especially early game. Even so, however, there's a cost that we shouldn't overlook. (You have to give up running another civic.)

So, basically, imo a philosophical civ should always go SE, especially if they can nab the pyramids and a financial civ should always go CE (with Liz going hybrid).

IMO, Philosophical benefits CE just as much as SE. A well-run GP farm, whether in CE or SE, produces more and faster GP than in parallel (multiple cities). (Early game, a SE can indeed effectively produce GP in parallel, so that is an exception, but once the SE has a GP farm running, the parallel generation is no longer a benefit to the SE.)

So, IMO, Philo can be SE or CE.

I agree that Financial should always go CE. MrCynical challenged that notion, but I'll let him argue that.

BTW, I agree with acidsatyr (who plays a lot of SE at very high skill levels) that the settings for this test will make results very hard to analyze. I'd rather see pure CE vs pure SE AND I would rather see it with financial vs. phil w/pyramids.

Go for it. I'll be interested in seeing your results!

Why? Because I really believe that a CE is going to be superior with a neutral leader.

That comment would lead us to believe that we should test neutral leaders, rather than financial vs phil/pyramids. Right?

Plus, you should not use caste system in a SE. Why? Because one of the HUGEST, HUGEST, HUGEST advantages of a SE is very high food-output meaning extensive whipping.

I disagree there. Extensive whipping and running specialists are two mutually exclusive strategies.

One of the downfalls of the CE imo is that it is low food meaning longer regrowth after whipping and thus you have cottages that are not being worked!!!

I agree. Extensive whipping and CE are two mutually exclusive strategies.

A hybrid economy imo is superior to both!!!

Why? Curious why you think so.

Imo SE has amazing synergy with conquest/domination victories, especially since pyramids also opens up police state!!!

Agreed!

Wodan

 

[futurehermit]

Well, let's take a hypothetical. Say a great scientist granted 1,000,000 beakers when lightbulbing (instead of 1500-2000). They don't, but let's just suppose. If they did, then this would totally eclipse the potential 7 or so from a fully developed Town. So, the supporting evidence does not seem to be sufficient to lead us to the conclusion. Agreed?

Wodan

No. What I was saying is that a philosophical leader will receive more GP which they can use as lightbulbs giving a LOT of beakers, which you have to take into consideration in terms of who's accumulating more beakers over time(i.e., you can't just compare commerce output in CE vs. specialist output with SE)

I don't think anyone would disagree that Philosophical benefits a SE. However, there's a cost for Philosophical (you have to give up one of your 2 Traits), so it's not as much a slam dunk, not to me anyway. Is it really worth giving up Charismatic, or Industrious, in order to get the Philo? Very hard to answer that question.

Also, that Representation makes a SE much better. I think this is a clearer case, especially early game. Even so, however, there's a cost that we shouldn't overlook. (You have to give up running another civic.)

Wodan

Yes, philosophical is better than other traits, such as industrious. Ask most high-level players on these forums. What civic are you going to run early in the game that is better than representation? HR? I'd rather have representation, thanks.

IMO, Philosophical benefits CE just as much as SE. A well-run GP farm, whether in CE or SE, produces more and faster GP than in parallel (multiple cities). (Early game, a SE can indeed effectively produce GP in parallel, so that is an exception, but once the SE has a GP farm running, the parallel generation is no longer a benefit to the SE.)

So, IMO, Philo can be SE or CE.

Wodan

Here, you are just wrong. We proved this awhile back. A SE will also have a GP farm, but also specialists in parallel. As a result, they WILL get noticeably more GP in a game. Philo benefits SE MUCH more than CE.

That comment would lead us to believe that we should test neutral leaders, rather than financial vs phil/pyramids. Right?

Wodan

Fair enough, I'm just assuming that the test of neutral leaders will end up with the CE being superior based on extensive testing I did awhile back.

I disagree there. Extensive whipping and running specialists are two mutually exclusive strategies.

Wodan

Again, you are wrong here. They go hand in hand. Both require a heavy-food economy to work most successfully. A CE is too low-food to grow back quickly after whipping, especially when you are whipping A LOT.

 

[acidsatyr]

with farms your cities grow back in no time, with cottages, it takes forever, obviously since you dont have farms.

 

[futurehermit]

^^^not to mention that with all the surplus food you can also work a lot more +++hammers tiles meaning more production = faster, larger army = more synergy with militaristic victories.