Challenge #5: Million Dollar Monty

My save. I also have some intermediate saves (500 BC, 1000 AD, 1310 AD) if anyone's interested.

I have no objections to extending the deadline. It sounds like several people are still playing.

******** tech could be interesting. I think 'Aggressive AI' would have to be turned on. How late should the finish date be? Too early and it's 'sit on a pile of longbows'. Too late and it's 'conquer the world with cats and maces so you can ignore the modern age'.

peace,
lilnev
 
No problem at all for extending the deadline :)

About the new challenge: it's a very good idea, but it looks too much similar to this one.

Why cant'we test an "everybody ate me" option? Maybe with a very short end, 600 AD?
 
Raiser said:
wolfigor, mice, pigswill, lynxx, Dr E, PeteJ, patagonia and carl corey are all still playing.
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Don't extend the deadline for me, I'm out of the competition and I'm not sure I can play before the 12th. :(

I have a flight to catch tomorrow and I'm not sure I'll have energy to play during the flight (even if 11 hours of boredom may give me the opportunity to do so) ;)

Next week I'll busy full time and jetlagged (full time as well)... so no game either.

I'm happy you like the idea of ******** tech.
I agree with the comment that a too late end may give you the opportunity to kill or badly mame all the opponents... 1200 may be good.

For the level I would say monarch (AI fast enough to give you huge problems... but maybe too many) but prince could be a better choice?

The map could be a tough choice as well.
Pangea: a lot of angry AI ready to eat you alive, but an early rush can save the day.
Islands: enough time to build your empire, and enough opportunities for the AI to destroy it (in this case one player, AI or human, must be the Vikings)
 
Yea on second thoughts I vote for option 1. Maybe just wrap it up when Carl Corey gets back.

And my interest is leaning towards ******** tech for the next. Tauro , what is "everybody ate me" ?
 
not to be a nitpicker, but a question regarding "arrested development" (yay i´m copywrighting that right now... the low research challenge)...

isn´t this kind of similar to what some already did in this challenge (for example me): stay out of religious controversy, give into demands just try to live peacefully. this was easily done with an 1800 AD finish date (for the cowards amongst us at least).

basically i´d probably go for as many religions as i could get (civs and starting civ will of course play a great role here, so that could easily be tweaked) get hereditary and then longbowmen and just load up on those. decline every attempt of making me less of a backwards nation and gift as many (happy-)resources as i could and gold to boot. probably run it as a OCC to boot so as to avoid encroaching upon my neighbours territory.

if you are going for something along those lines, meaning low tech, you will have to find another parameter that plays into this. like beakers times population or territory. though that would heavily favour early conquest.

i just don´t see how that could be as open to mmultiple attempts as this one (though also here, the early attack apparently prevailed.)

therefore i like the biggest city idea. the trick there is to find the right map. one giving you positions

A) easily settled by peaceful means, tech your way up
and
B) removed but better, get it early and get back into the tech game (my gut feeling tells me this is going to be the better option again, sue me)

then again, this challenge has proven to be so much fun. even after the prevailing strats have been revealed that i will give this another go next week even after the top gamers will ahve been chosen. because i want to see how my original idea would have payed out with the additional info of other players and attempting to merge others´strategies into my own.

so in the end, i am stumped :D

cheers y´all
 
Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
  • When are the checkpoints? The first one needs to be late enough that you actually took some risks by remaining backward. Being backward in 1500BC isn't as difficult as being backward in 1500AD. There also needs to be enough of a gap between the two that you have a reasonable chance to make some progress and catch up.
  • How do you do the "scoring?" How do you combine the two checkpoints together into one overall rating? Is the second checkpoint a matter of total technology (how much have you discovered total) or is it relative to the first checkpoint (how much have you discovered since the first checkpoint?
  • What difficulty level? It needs to be difficult enough that getting behind is actually a problem. If you do this on Settler, it will be really easy to fix whatever disastrous things you did to your empire in the first part of the game. I'd say it probably needs to be Noble or Prince.
  • Other?
The problem in having "checkpoints" is that the best strategy would be to effectively play this challenge in reverse - build a strong cottage economy with your tax-rate set to 100% until CP1 and then use your gold mountain to fund deficit research to try and reel-in the opposition after that.

A simple "fewest techs researched by 1200AD" - pangaea, aggressive AI - throw Monty into the mix for good measure could be interesting... more of a test of diplomacy and peace-mongering than anything else, and I think letting it run to that point would make for a quick run-through with at least one war to spice things up.

============

As for extending the deadline for this challenge, don't worry about me. If I don't get my game played by Sunday, it probably won't get played at all.
 
On the subject of alternate strats, scherbchen....
OR
Here’s something to read on the flight, Wolfigor....



wolfigor said:
I have a question for Raiser: Do you think you could apply your strategy to a "standard" game (or maybe part of it)? That could be really interesting to know.

I’m not sure what part of my strategy you are interested in. Plus most of it isn’t technical ‘mine’. I like to stand on the shoulders of giants.

Four of the five tactics I adopted for ‘Milli:commerce:n Dll:commerce:ar M:commerce:nty’ I often use. They combine to give me a ‘Rush for land, then Peace to boom’-style strategy, and are fairly standard. So the answer to our question is: Yes.

I picked them for this challenge because if I had tried to dominate the continent, in a similar way to lilnev, I knew I wouldn’t have played that type of game well. I tend to spend resources inefficiently when making offensive, mid-game armies. These armies are usually cautiously oversized to avoid risk. I felt this would disadvantage me for a total wealth challenge.


As I said, four are fairly standard, but there was one element of the strategy that I used in this challenge that I didn’t know much about. I’ve been experimenting with since, and I……. absolutely love it! :D

It combines only using a 100% research rate and a 0% research rate, and nothing in between, with a focus on prioritising the gold +% buildings (Mark/Groc/Bank) more than the core research +% buildings (Lib/Uni).

The result has increased the rate at which I gain techs and given me a greater flexibility in dealing with surprises. Which is nice.

So now I’m really glad I played this challenge.

The details:
Spoiler :

The 100%/0% system
Like a lot of players I strive to be technically advanced and early/mid-game I will spend ever penny I get on research. But there are two ways to spend that gold on research.

- The first is to run at the highest possible % research rate that will keep you steady at just above zero gold in the treasury.

- The second way is to find that steady % research rate, the one that doesn’t increase or decrease your treasury, and note what that rate is, plus also note the number of turns it will take you to complete a desired tech at that rate. Then run at a 0% research for just as long so as to accrue enough gold that you can run at 100% to finish that tech.

It’s clearer in an example:
If your maximum research rate is 40% and this will allow to complete your chosen tech in 10 turns, then opt to run at 0% rate for 6 turns and then switch to 100% rate for 4 turns.

The tech will be completed in the 10 turns just the same as first method, but the second way has several advantages.


The benefits of using a ‘100%/0% only’ method of research:

1 Money in the bank
You gain an increasing reserve in your treasury as you begin preparing to obtain a tech and then that reserve is spent over the remaining turns after you’ve switched to the 100% rate. Therefore, apart from one turn each tech, you’ve always got some gold ‘on hand’ in case you need to ‘hurry’ some units for defence or finish a crucial building early or you need some gold in a critical diplomatic negotiation.

This is my main reason for doing it and I like that it works well with Pyramids/Spiritual/Universal Suffrage combo.


2 Flexibility in choosing which tech to research
After running on 0% research for a few turns, you can change your mind about what tech to spend the accumulated gold on, if your priorities have changed in the mean time. Then you won't have lost any time researching the wrong tech.


3 Advantages in tech trading
Doing this on more than one tech, when the intermediate techs aren't immediately needed (and making sure you have enough accumulated gold for researching all the techs in the chain) will mean that you get the intermediate techs later. Although you will complete the chain in exactly the same time as the player that uses method #1 - a steady % rate.

Getting the intermediate techs later is good because it gives you a greater chance of gaining that intermediate (and not immediately useful) tech by trade instead of research.

This happened in my challenge attempt when I saw that Machinery would take 6 turns, Printing Press would take 12 turns, and Saladin had completed all the techs before Machinery. I choose to stay on 0% research until I had enough gold to 100% research both. It ended up that Saladin got Machinery and traded it to me for philosophy at a time where I would have already researched it if I had just run at my max % or chosen not to group the two techs together in this way.


4 The chance of more research bonus for you and less for your opponents
The more AIs have the tech you want the better bonus you get on your research. So those few extra turns of accruing gold before you start researching give your opponents time to get a tech and let you pick up more bonus.

Also, doing this on more than one tech at a time (when the intermediate techs aren't immediately needed) means that opponents will get less research bonus since one less player knows those techs.


5. Gains in beakers and gold through rounding errors
Using the 100%/0% method of research gives you extra beakers and coin because of the way Civ deals with rounding errors.

A simple (and borrowed) example - if you are getting 10 commerce per turn in your city with a library and a market and you run a research rate of 70% for 10 turns you'll have 80 beakers and 30 gold.

What you should do instead is run at 0% research 30% of the time (3 turns) and run at 100% research 70% of the time (7 turns). Then you’ll have 84 beakers and 36 gold. 4 more beakers and 6 more gold than by doing it the easy, but inefficient, 70% research rate.

(All credit goes to the mad genius Zombie69. The calculations for the above example (along with most of the ideas stated here) are all HERE in his excellent micro-management article in the section called The Binary Science Rate. There are also some great tips on micro-management minutiae.)


A note on rounding errors:
- These gains occur no matter what figures you use.
- The gains are lessened as your base commerce increases.
- Specialists that produce gold or beakers can slightly hurt this effect as they still produce beakers or gold when a rate is 0%.
- There is no gain from rounding error until you get at least one ‘+% building’. e.g. library, market, monastery, academy etc, etc


N.B. One of the only disadvantages with the 100%/0% system is that an AI is more likely to demand tribute when it sees you have lots of money in treasury. Tell him/her to F-off.




The second element of this strat is focusing on constructing the core ‘gold plus-percentage’ buildings sooner than the core ‘research plus-percentage’ buildings.

Constructing both types is better than one, but I (like a lot of players) tended to focus on universities at the determinant of gaining wealth buildings. After completing this challenge I now think differently.


The benefits of focusing on the Mark/Groc/Bank
Writing and Libraries are a vital part of the game, but the jump to Education and Universities is often a long one at around 2500 research points. So I don’t arrive at +25% and +25% research that quickly. (If I’m not crossing water I rarely pick up Astronomy soon for Observatories. And Labs are late game with Computers.)

I’m now happy to prioritise Guilds and Banking and add to my Market to give the +100% to my gold accumulation sooner rather than later.

The tech route to the Groc/Bank fits well with my love of defence (longbowmen) and hampering my opponents (knights). I often pillage my opponent's improvements while I turtle away.

Also I find that my tendency to try to dominate religions means I’m not short on the culture of Lib’s and Uni’s, and now that I’m getting Markets and Grocers earlier than I previously would have the health and happiness bonuses are very welcome.

But the main reason is I like Mark/Groc/Bank is the gold +%'s synergy with the 0%/100% system.

(N.B. I tend to like Academies in long games and they often appear in my capital.)


Synergy
Having a high research bonus works just as well as having a high gold bonus. (Having both high is better still.) But now that I use the 100%/0% system it is even more vital to get ‘gold’ buildings sooner.

This key point can be illustrated by the following example:
Two players both using the 100%/0% research method. The first has chosen to make more of the core gold buildings. The second has chosen to make more of the core research buildings.

The first player accumulates gold faster, but has longer periods spending that gold on research.

The second player takes longer to accumulate the same amount of gold, but researches the same tech quicker.

So the rate at which you get the techs is the same, but the first player arrives at a large ‘safety-net’ of gold in his treasury quicker. Also if he suddenly finds he needs it for an alternate purpose he’ll regain it faster.


I’m going to try and be the first type of guy. :D But these guys definitely have advantages over the third guy who always runs on the max rate he can get. He doesn’t get the tech any quicker (10 turns at 70% is the same as 3 turns at 0% + 7 turns at 100%), but crucially he never spends anytime with gold to hand for those ‘oh-my-god-help-me’ moments.

And, of course, all three are better than the guy who poo-poo’s research in favour of hoarding gold for a much later day and is happy to creep up the tech tree at a slower rate. The worst possible option... in my humble opinion.


[Again all credit to Zombie69 for a lot of the thinking :crazyeye: you see here.]





P.S. The other four, more standard, tactics tried to use for this challenge that gave me my preferred ‘Rush for land, then Peace to boom’-style are:
Spoiler :
Rush-Kill your nearest neighbour for some easy space
Reading the first posts on this thread I decided to do a ‘Star Trek: First Contact’ on Izzy. (How geeky is that sentence! :rolleyes:) i.e. Go back in time and wipe out humanity before they have a chance to grow into a threat. :borg: :borg: :borg:

Rapid Expansion Settlement
Producing settlers faster than is actually efficient to snatch land that might be lost to your neighbours.

Blocking City Placement
Blocking Saladin from growing into choice land. I always tend to adopt a ‘Rim & Hub’ strat. Place boarder cities on the rim of your civ first (if you can imagine your future civ looks like a wheel) and them grow cities back into the space between the rim and your capital at the ‘Hub of the Wheel’.

United Religion Tactic
Try and snatch all religions and release only one. It gains an easier peace with all your neighbours. Plus AI’s don’t fight each other, therefore no ‘stop trading with my enemy’ requests. It's also has uses specific to this challenge; they might grow more to make better tech trading partners, provide larger trade mission targets and better foreign trade revenues.


This last one often conflicts with rushing tactics on tech choices. But in my challenge attempt I got rid of Izzy with a handful of Jags and managed to get all the remaining civs on our continent into one religion for the majority of the game. So it’s possible.

Good luck.:wavey:


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Ah yes, binary science. I mostly play warlords now, where they've fixed the rounding error problem, so I've gotten out of the habit. It is definitely nice for the flexibility, though. One small thing to watch out for: if, after amassing enough gold to cover your deficit research, you then bring in even more gold (typically in a tech trade or by sacking a city), you can't push your research above 100%. A non-binary strategy might reach that tech a turn earlier, in this case, whereas the binary strategy would reach it at the original forecast date but with gold in the treasury. If I needed 4 turns of gold to cover 6 turns of research, I might run gold for 3, then research for 5, then 1 and 1, to avoid this hazard.

I've thought of another potentially interesting challenge: fastest AI victory. That's right, your goal is to help someone else win. We'd have to disable domination, and/or (probably better) forbid city-gifting. But you could give an AI techs or gold, kill a neighbor so he has room to expand, vote for him in the UN. I think it would create interesting tension, trying to advance yourself so that you remain an effective actor while giving away substantial assets to help someone else achieve a fast victory. Thoughts?

peace,
lilnev
 
Wonderful idea :)

It sounds very funny.
You could act as a power vassal state after choosing your winning horse :)

Let's avoid pangea and go to monarch level. I think we will learn a lot about AI's behavior. In only one game happened that one AI went straight for a domination victory. I suggest to skip pacifist and aggressive civs , to make the thing more complex. As stated by Lilnev no cities gift (what about Military units?). I'd prefere to let the domination option viable, I want to trasform Roosy or Victoria in a perfect warmonger :)
 
Dont extend the deadline for me either, was planing to squize some game time in tomorrow night to be able to finish the game, but i might enjoy it more if i dont force myself to play it all through once.

I like the option of "******** research". Why not extend it further and say that noone can research past the ancient techs? In other words: horsebackriding is the most expensive tech you are allowed to research.
Perhaps we can make it a game of survival/earliest win if we can make that happen...agressive ai might be a good option so that noone can stay peaceful with their ten times stronger neighbours through to moderntimes (their modern times).
 
lilnev said:
I've thought of another potentially interesting challenge: fastest AI victory. That's right, your goal is to help someone else win. We'd have to disable domination, and/or (probably better) forbid city-gifting. But you could give an AI techs or gold, kill a neighbor so he has room to expand, vote for him in the UN. I think it would create interesting tension, trying to advance yourself so that you remain an effective actor while giving away substantial assets to help someone else achieve a fast victory. Thoughts?

Interesting that you mention the 'get another civ to win' idea; I've been experimenting to see if I could get AI-controlled Monty to win a diplomatic victory with the following settings: aggressive AI; huge map (continents); 18 civs; all victories enabled (domination is particularly problematic). Plus: no gifting cities; no building the UN and then voting for Monty rather then myself.

As far as I can tell it's damned near impossible (I've managed to get him onto the ballot, but had to starve my own people to do so, thereby leaving insufficient votes between us to win it) but I'd be most interested if anyone could figure out how to pull it off. Perhaps there's a really obvious way and I'm too dumb to spot it...

(I realise that this wouldn't be an appropriate challenge here, but I thought you might like to know that I've been trying something similar to what you've suggested).
 
Winston Hughes said:
Interesting that you mention the 'get another civ to win' idea; I've been experimenting to see if I could get AI-controlled Monty to win a diplomatic victory with the following settings: aggressive AI; huge map (continents); 18 civs; all victories enabled (domination is particularly problematic). Plus: no gifting cities; no building the UN and then voting for Monty rather then myself.

As far as I can tell it's damned near impossible (I've managed to get him onto the ballot, but had to starve my own people to do so, thereby leaving insufficient votes between us to win it) but I'd be most interested if anyone could figure out how to pull it off. Perhaps there's a really obvious way and I'm too dumb to spot it...

(I realise that this wouldn't be an appropriate challenge here, but I thought you might like to know that I've been trying something similar to what you've suggested).
Ha! That's funny.

Actually I'm not sure how the AI acts once it becomes secretary general. Does it put itself up for a victory, or does it futz around with non-proliferation, civics changes, etc?

And I've thought of a tactic that should probably be nerfed: Declare war on your Chosen One, then abandon the cities you want him to take. You could even lure him there with a string of sacrificial workers if he wasn't ambitious enough. Sort of a work-around to the "no gifting cities" clause.

peace,
lilnev
 
In The-UN-That-Is-This-Thread the 'Let's stick to the plan'-lobbyists win a unanimous vote. So the last chance for official entries to Milli:commerce:n D:commerce:llar M:commerce:nty is today, Sunday 8th. Still, it'll be shupper-shweet if everybody declares their total over the next week-ish so we get an idea of what the average is.

Carl Corey will update the final table tomorrow when he's back from the world. I've got the feeling that Lilnev's deeply impressive 149,097:gold: will reign supreme. But we'll see.

Whoever wins this challenge holds the majority vote on the tricky question of 'What Next?' Hopefully that person will have the time to sift through the ideas bouncing around here, play-test their preferred choice, find a solid opening save, and post it in a new thread by Friday 13th. Easy. :D


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lilnev said:
Ah yes, binary science. I mostly play warlords now, where they've fixed the rounding error problem, so I've gotten out of the habit. It is definitely nice for the flexibility, though. One small thing to watch out for: if, after amassing enough gold to cover your deficit research, you then bring in even more gold (typically in a tech trade or by sacking a city), you can't push your research above 100%. A non-binary strategy might reach that tech a turn earlier, in this case, whereas the binary strategy would reach it at the original forecast date but with gold in the treasury. If I needed 4 turns of gold to cover 6 turns of research, I might run gold for 3, then research for 5, then 1 and 1, to avoid this hazard.

Yeah, no rounding errors in Warlords. This is a minor factor for me even in Civ IV vanilla. Holding a reserve treasury while not slowing my tech-ing is far more dominant factor for choosing to '100%/0% only' method of research.

Good point about a bonus gold. I've been occasionally leaving a one turn buffer to allow for any progress in acquiring gold/beakers, but now I factor in my city razing activities and keep a carefully eye on the AI's gold reserve. So it's not too hard to avoid being surprised......Boo! :eek:



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I ain't gonna finish today but as posted I ain't likely to beat current totals so it don't really matter in terms of winner selects next challenge.
 
scherbchen said:
isn´t this kind of similar to what some already did in this challenge (for example me): stay out of religious controversy, give into demands just try to live peacefully. this was easily done with an 1800 AD finish date (for the cowards amongst us at least)
Yes, you are right, the tactic you esposed can very well be a good one.
One point to mention is that "arrested development" (c) is the subtly of choosing the stop-point not only for survival but also for winning the challenge. :)
If you play in complete isolation, then it's pretty straight forward: you stop at a point that is suitable only with your survival.
But playing in a challenge like this one you need to chose your tech-stop-point thinking about what tech-stop-points the other guys here on the forum will choose. :)
After a time it will become a competition to stop earlier and earlier... practically a bet (e.g. I will win without even enter the classical age or something like that). :)
 
Raiser said:
‘Rush for land, then Peace to boom’-style strategy, and are fairly standard. So the answer to our question is: Yes.
When I play my solo games I do use a similar approach.
Spoiler :

a continous Rush/war for land - peace/economy:
Expand until my economy allows it (to a predefined science% level to keep my economy in the black).
Stop expansion, put resources into infrastructures building and economy improvements until a get an healty cash surplus in terms of GPT (gold per turn).
Then start expanding again.
One or two cycles only if I want to win by culture (or any other pacific mean) or continous repetition of these cycles to win by domination/conquest.
If you use this high level strategy it's very important to have a huge cash surplus (very healty economy) by the time your UU enter thye game.
 
For what regards the current challenge, I very much doubt I'm going to finish it this week. :(
I'm just posting because I have some serious jet-lag...

My excuse in the spiler... but very off-topic
Spoiler :

A calm flight Dusseldorf-London-Tokyo spent mostly talking with a gentle stewardess and the pilots: no point of trying to play on the laptop because the battery will not last long enough. :(
Followed by a full day in the Japanese capital trying to remain awake... went to bed and woke-up at 04:45am local time :sad:
Week of work and saturday fly back to Germany.
One day of rest and then fly to London to spend there the remainder of the week.
 
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