Challenge #5: Million Dollar Monty

[carl corey]

It will. I'm really busy right now, but will do it this evening - that's the earliest I'll get to my civ computer. I was wondering how long it would take you guys to notice.

Unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to play this before the finish date, but I'll sure give it a try afterwards as it seems like fun.

 

[patagonia]

Unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to play this before the finish date, but I'll sure give it a try afterwards as it seems like fun.

I'm in the same boat I think.

It looks like the best strategy would be very similar to the approach I take when going for a quick space win, only this time focusing on banks rather than universities and switching research off for more

. Judging by Raiser's total, he'd have been easily the most advanced by 1800 if he'd focused on beakers instead of cash.

 

[PeteJ]

i don't think i'll be able to post a score before the finish date either. It is very hard to balance school, work, civ, and a social life. I will certainly do this though and post a score whenever I finish(even if its 3 weeks from now).

Good job breaking 100K Raiser. Now I know what I have to shoot for.

Did you guys keep science at 100% until you turned research off? Or did you gradually lower the science bar?

 

[Raiser]

Did you guys keep science at 100% until you turned research off? Or did you gradually lower the science bar?

I pushed research as high as I could, normally 100%, until I stopped at 1500AD, and switched to 100% wealth. At 1500AD I had zero in the treasury. But my initial investment meant that I spent the last 300 years on a strong gold per turn (finishing at 1672/turn), and this did the trick.


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Judging by Raiser's total, he'd have been easily the most advanced by 1800 if he'd focused on beakers instead of cash.

Yeah, I was in pole position from the time I built my last city until about 100 years from the end. At that time I started practically giving away my techs to ensure I didn't stumble into a diplomatic crisis.


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It interested me to see exactly where the rest of my 111,021 came from after cottages. So I did some calcs and got the %'s for all the sources of gold:

Cottage Tiles
Non-Cottage Tiles
GM Trade Missions
Merch Specialists
Foriegn Trade Routes
Domestic Trade Routes
Shrines
Wealth Built in cities
Resources traded for gold
Techs traded for gold

I've put the results in a spoiler in case one of you doesn't want my results to influence your tactics.

Spoiler :

All of my 111,021 was generated in the last 300 years. I was on zero gold at 1500AD when I finished my teching, and all my buildings and improvements had been completed by then. And I touched very little except to stave one city for GM's.

So it was relatively easy to calculate theses figures. The conclusions surprised me.


INCOME
Cottage Tiles…………………….....….53411…..…45.6%
Non-Cottage Tiles……………....…….4948……....4.2%
Gr Merch Trade Missions…….…….25300……...21.6%
Merch Specialists ………………...….8682…......7.4%
Foriegn Trade Routes…………..…..17891……...15.3%
Domestic Trade Routes………….....…210…...….0.2%
Shrines……………………………........….2210….......1.9%
Wealth Built in cities…….........……2526….....….2.2%
Resources traded for gold……….……474……......0.4%
The Capital…………………………......…1421……......1.2%
(i.e.+8 base commerce)
Gross Income Total ……………117073 ……..100%

EXPENSES
Unit Cost……………………..................-0….........…0%
Unit Supply………………...............…..-0…….........0%
City Maintenance …..........……..-737……......…29%
Civic Maintenance………..........…-2526…........…41%
Inflation ……………………............-1789……......…30%
Total…………………..............–6052……….…100%

Net Total Treasury……………111021


My final gold per turn income was 1672, and my expenses per turn was 115.


*All multipliers have been included. The only incomes not effected by Mark/Groc/Bank & Wall Street are non city sources (Gr Merch Trade Missions, Gold for Resources & Gold for Tech.) That's why it is so important, for this challenge, to have a Mark/Groc/Bank in every single city as soon as you can.


Notes on my strat results
*68 Towns built
**11 trade missions at 2300 gold each.
***Free Market civic used, but No Great Lighthouse built.
****1 shrine constructed giving 21 gold per turn.
*****Hammer Wealth produced in cities is low because I moved all citizens from mines to Merch specialists.
******Resources traded for gold is low because I prioritised bartering on happiness/health bonuses and diplomacy pluses.
*******My 'Techs traded for gold' total in the last 300 years was almost zero. I used those trades to keep the peace.


Keypoints
- Total Expenses is 5% of the Gross Income. So city maintenance is negligible when you have 68 towns and 8 cities on Prince diff.

I should not have built any courthouses for this challenge.


- Cottages accounted for 45.6% of my final total. Gr Merchs 21.6%. Trade Routes 15.5%. Shrines 1.9%.

I'm so glad I didn't both to spread a second religion. I'm also so glad I didn't bother building The Spiral Marinet.


- With religion in 21 cities a Shrine contributes the same as 3 of my fully worked cottages.

I should not have built the 3 temples, to get the 1 cathedral, to get the extra 3 priests, to get the Great Prophet sooner, to get the dame shrine! lol! I'd have got way more money building wealth and creating one more Gr Merch instead.

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[lilnev]

Well I'm done. 149,097. I can't post the save til tomorrow, though, 'cuz I didn't have any CD-Rs at home (where I play, but don't have internet).

Spoiler :

I finished the Romans in 1500 AD and did not go to war with the French. At that time I still hadn't established a proper GP farm (i.e. National Epic), so I put it in Rome, with all it's lovely food and complete lack of pre-existing towns. Stupid Romans. Then it was peace and growth. Finished markets etc in the cities that still needed them, then courthouses, then some cities built Knights to project power, eventually everywhere just built wealth. US/Free Speech/Caste Sytem/Mercantilism/Pacifism. Trade was negligible (and Free Trade wouldn't have helped much, there simply weren't enough AI cities to trade with), but the merchants were nice. Popped I think 6 GMs, plus two Prophets.

By the end I had 194 cottaged tiles. About half had grown up into towns, most of the rest were villages. I built 25 maces (lost 12) and 20 catapults (lost 13), plus a few spears, elephants and knights.

Overall I think the Roman conquests were about revenue-neutral. They were contributing significantly by the end, but the opportunity cost was some development of my cities in the 1000-1250 AD period. If I had it to do over again (I won't have the time), I would war earlier with Isabella (axes, jags, chariots), then take out Saladin with Elephants and Catapults, hopefully finishing up with war before 1000 AD.

I pushed research as high as I could, normally 100%, until I stopped at 1500AD, and switched to 100% wealth. At 1500AD I had zero in the treasury. But my initial investment meant that I spent the last 300 years on a strong gold per turn (finishing at 1672/turn), and this did the trick.

Likewise, I ran research full speed until I was done (I think 1290, reaching Liberalism/PP/Econ) then switched to all wealth. Most of the money I made in the 1300s I spent rush-buying banks and such in some low-production cities (Saladin kindly built the Pyramids for me), so I started from zero around 1380 AD, at about 700 gpt. However I still had buildings coming online, cities increasing in size, and cottages growing up through the end of the game, and my gpt steadily rose to the final rate of 3121.

Yeah, I was in pole position from the time I built my last city until about 100 years from the end. At that time I started practically giving away my techs to ensure I didn't stumble into a diplomatic crisis.

Here we differ. I didn't give away techs, because I wanted the AIs to stay as backwards as possible. I did offer some food resources at bargain prices, though.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Raiser]

But as far as the Warmonger vs Peacenik debate goes I'm confident that a 90% peace strat will always beat continued agressive warmongering in a total gold challenge.

I stand corrected. D'Oh!


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Big congrats to you lilnev. You're far superior at crushing nations than I am. Big Land = Big Money.

By the end I had 194 cottaged tiles.

Yep. That'd do it.



I wont try it again. I found it hard enough to get to 111k. So roll on the next challenge.


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P.S. I can't believe I neglected Universal Suffrage. I had my Pyramids, but I forgot about that civic because I was in a hoarding mindset.



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[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Well I'm done. 149,097.

Holy crap!

I'm not sure I'll have time to finish my game, but at this point I'd really like to, simply to see how badly I do compared to you and Raiser.

 

[carl corey]

While we're waiting for lilnev's save, Raiser is the leader of the newly updated scoreboard (post 2 of the thread, first page). Enjoy it while it lasts.

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There's a 75% chance that'll I'll be away starting tomorrow evening. So the next update will be on Monday evening.

 

[Lynxx]

That is some great scores done by Raiser and lilnev!.... I have barely started my game but was planing to go down the same route, but now i feel no matter what score i end up with ill do a copycat at the best .

And carl corey, you are going to be away this weekend as you said arent you? Im kind of counting on it to have time to finish my attempt...

 

[carl corey]

Updated with Welnic's 50k save that I missed the first time.

 

[scherbchen]

ongawduxtramadrolleyes lil

yes, that´s a word too! stop doubting my lexis-thingie!

 

[pigswill]

I also doubt that I'm going to finish before closing date; certainly doubt I'll beat the latest batch of high scores.

 

[Tauro]

!!!

No words

I spent a week to do a miserable 80 K lol

Congrats to Lilnev, and Raiser too, couse 111K is still a monster score for me

 

[mice]

Lilnev. Like tauro said, no words !!!

Plenty of implications for strats though... brilliant information from these top players.

It seems some people want to play on in order to finish it so could we extend the limit time out into next week?? This could give plenty of time to thrash out the next challenge. I'm playing it out just for fun now. Good map.

Is it too early to talk about the next challenge? I was thinking research.
Maybe earliest date to tech Chemistry,Nationalism,Astronomy and Printing Press. Something like that.
Or total beakers.Wouldn't be too hard to calculate.

Or this challenge again with peace only. Maybe not.
No cottages total gold?

I think a reseach one could dip into the murky waters of 'specialist economy are you guys buying this?' and the 'head to head experiment'.This could be very interesting.

 

[Qwack]

Why not largest city size by a certain date? Or most population.. something concentrated on farms and food.

 

[wolfigor]

Compliments for the two champions (let me put both of them on a olympus of their own)!
I did start this challenge a bit late and still to finish, and I don't see any way I can match the top scores here... real life is claiming far too much time from me, and my laptop is not helping as either (still waiting for my new PC).

I really love this challenges.
I have a question for Raiser: do you think you could apply your strategy to a "standard" game (or maybe part of it)?
That could be really interesting to know.

I also have my humble suggestion for the next challenge...a bit unortodox but maybe fun:
Lowest tech at 1800AD.
Lowest tech calculated as the sum of the beakers-value of all techs possed at the deadline.
As I said very unortodox but very challenging with some hard questions to answer:
How to survive against aggressive and far technological superior AIs?
When stop teching(not only for survival reasons but also to win the challenge)?

Naturally the game settings include a good mix of aggressive CIVs.

 

[Raiser]

How about a vote:

Option 1: Keep the current set up.
i.e.
- Finish date: Sunday, 8th October.
- Chat about a new challenge until Thursday, 12th October.
- New challenge begins on Friday, 13th October.

Option 2: Extend this challenge by 1 week,
(but still try and do mainly '2 weekend' challenges in the future.)
i.e.
- Finish date: Sunday, 15th October.
- Chat about a new challenge until Thursday, 19th October.
- New challenge begins on Friday, 20th October.

Note: If we go for Option 2, I think all entries in the extra week should count in the final scoreboard posted on Sunday 15th.

And trying out somebody elses strat, but attempting to perfect it's implementation, is perfectly valid.

I wont be having another go either way but I vote - option 2, as it seems that wolfigor, mice, pigswill, lynxx, Dr E, PeteJ, patagonia and carl corey are all still playing.


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Proper Poll Counter: Is there a mid-thread 'post a poll' option on this forum? I can't see it.


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[Raiser]

I really love this challenges.
I have a question for Raiser: do you think you could apply your strategy to a "standard" game (or maybe part of it)?
That could be really interesting to know.

I missed your question.

Just writing a far too lengthy reply about one particular aspect of 'going for gold' that I liked.


P.S. I like the ******** tech challenge idea. I'll think on suggesting settings for a challenge like this, when this one is wrapped up. A 1200AD finish early-era, mini-game might suit?



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[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I wont be having another go either way but I vote - option 2, as it seems that mice, pigswill, lynxx, Dr E, PeteJ, patagonia and carl corey are all still playing.

Thanks, but I actually vote for option 1. More than likely I'll finish it up this weekend or never. Anyway, there's nothing stopping someone from playing the game after the official close date of the "challenge." It's not like we're giving away a million dollars or something. All you win is the respect and admiration of your peers, so it's really more about the personal satisfaction you get from playing the game, and there's no deadline on that.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

******** technology would certainly be unique.

I think part of the value of that challenge would be learning how to play from behind. Given that, I think it would make the challenge more interesting if there were two checkpoints instead of one. For the first -- the early point -- the goal would be to be as backward as possible. You want to know as little technology as you can. For the second -- the later point -- the goal would be to have caught up the farthest. Of course, there are a lot of questions and problems with that idea.

• When are the checkpoints? The first one needs to be late enough that you actually took some risks by remaining backward. Being backward in 1500BC isn't as difficult as being backward in 1500AD. There also needs to be enough of a gap between the two that you have a reasonable chance to make some progress and catch up.
• How do you do the "scoring?" How do you combine the two checkpoints together into one overall rating? Is the second checkpoint a matter of total technology (how much have you discovered total) or is it relative to the first checkpoint (how much have you discovered since the first checkpoint?
• What difficulty level? It needs to be difficult enough that getting behind is actually a problem. If you do this on Settler, it will be really easy to fix whatever disastrous things you did to your empire in the first part of the game. I'd say it probably needs to be Noble or Prince.
• Other?