Changes to Borders in Europe

[Silurian]

Those etnic groups are not so much forced together.... they live in fragmented clusters over that whole Balkan area, and over the Austrian-Hungary area as well, because of past migrations and wars. A process that has taken place since neolithic times as you can see from gene maps, the haplo groups. The Turks did not leave much of their genes/ethnics during their empire occupation, but did leave their religion in some areas.

Those maps show that anybody who thinks that anybody who thinks that the ethnic groups form any sort of easily defined area are just wrong especially when you consider that the two maps have slightly different ethnic groups in one location.

 

[Patine]

The Turks did not leave much of their genes/ethnics during their empire occupation, but did leave their religion in some areas.

I don't know about this claim. The Bashi-Bazouks, at the very least, liked to take their tasks of suppressing rebellions in the Balkans for Ottomans Sultans and Beys as a good excuse to "spread their seed" in the region, if it wasn't at all consentual. And the Bashi-Bashouks were ethnically and genetically Turks, if members of "wild and savage mountain clans" from the interior of Anatolia who weren't appreciated in the civilized circles of Istanbul social life.

 

[HoloDoc]

I don't know about this claim. The Bashi-Bazouks, at the very least, liked to take their tasks of suppressing rebellions in the Balkans for Ottomans Sultans and Beys as a good excuse to "spread their seed" in the region, if it wasn't at all consentual. And the Bashi-Bashouks were ethnically and genetically Turks, if members of "wild and savage mountain clans" from the interior of Anatolia who weren't appreciated in the civilized circles of Istanbul social life.

There's the old joke; Turks are Muslim Greeks, and Greeks are Christian Turks. After so many centuries dominating the Balkans,there is no way there wasn't plenty of genetic mixing.

 

[Hrothbern]

I don't know about this claim. The Bashi-Bazouks, at the very least, liked to take their tasks of suppressing rebellions in the Balkans for Ottomans Sultans and Beys as a good excuse to "spread their seed" in the region, if it wasn't at all consentual. And the Bashi-Bashouks were ethnically and genetically Turks, if members of "wild and savage mountain clans" from the interior of Anatolia who weren't appreciated in the civilized circles of Istanbul social life.

Seed was not so well worded.
If you look at the former Yugoslavia map, you see only in Macedonia small dots with Turkish etnics.
Turkish people were not that popular after being occupied by them. Count Dracula is more than a horror movie.

 

[Hrothbern]

Those maps show that anybody who thinks that anybody who thinks that the ethnic groups form any sort of easily defined area are just wrong especially when you consider that the two maps have slightly different ethnic groups in one location.

Here a nice article that does some modelling on the size of the ethnic patches and the risk/occurrence of violence
https://mystudentvoices.com/solving-ethnic-violence-e0498e5bc759

We performed case studies in Yugoslavia, India, and Switzerland and found indeed that when patches of ethnic groups are above a certain size, ethnic violence does not occur. When patches are below a certain size, violence does not occur either. These thresholds are approximately above 60 kilometers and below 20 kilometers. This is a natural size, as this range is the longest distance a person might walk in a day. When islands or peninsulas of one ethnic group, surrounded by another group or groups, fall within the critical range then ethnic violence is most likely to occur.

It also uses Switzerland as example, where their model predicts hostilities in the area where actually a secession of the 26th canton Jura took place in 1979.
Noteworthy is that Switzerland is not a confederation of the 4 language areas, but a confederation of 26 cantons, indicating strong local identities, that needed enough self determination. Not only language and religion, but imo also the identity preserving effect of strong natural borders like lakes and the many mountains played a role.

 

[Commodore]

But you don't see it in infant schools. Cliques based around race, religion etc don't really start showing up until junior school, which suggests to me it is learned behaviour.

Yeah, you do see it in elementary school. It may not be based on race or religion, but children tend to form separate social groups just as much as teenagers and adults do.

It absolutely can if enough actors want to change them.

And none of the relevant actors want to change them. So as I said, what was done really can't be undone at this point.

 

[Imaus]

If two sovereign nations want to join in an agreement about their borders to resolve an issue, let them.

It sets no precedent for this has been done before. It shall not undue anything because it has been done before. If anything, encouraging diplomatic solutions to problems via dialogues and treaties and ordering to relocate governmental instruments is a rather neat and modern achievement, isn't it?

 

[Patine]

If two sovereign nations want to join in an agreement about their borders to resolve an issue, let them.

It sets no precedent for this has been done before. It shall not undue anything because it has been done before. If anything, encouraging diplomatic solutions to problems via dialogues and treaties and ordering to relocate governmental instruments is a rather neat and modern achievement, isn't it?

That's true. In fact, the Treaty of 1818, between the United States and the British Empire (then the colonial power controlling what became the Dominion of Canada) agreed to a swap of a few patches of land between them to even out and standardize the borders between the U.S. and the British North American colonies. This was further hammered out, expanded, and clarified by the Webster-Ashburton Treaty of 1842 and the Oregon Treaty of 1846.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Yeah, you do see it in elementary school. It may not be based on race or religion, but children tend to form separate social groups just as much as teenagers and adults do.

You don't see them forming friendships based on race or religion in infant schools. Since your claim was that people naturally prefer forming groups with others who are similar to themselves that they form friendships at that age without regard to race or religion suggests otherwise.

 

[HoloDoc]

You don't see them forming friendships based on race or religion in infant schools. Since your claim was that people naturally prefer forming groups with others who are similar to themselves that they form friendships at that age without regard to race or religion suggests otherwise.

With young children, "similar to themselves" usually equates to "we both like horses."